and a repost of the lessons unlearnt from history, and undoubtedly at least one of the cornerstones of our current and future situation

https://www.economist.com/special-report/2006/07/27/an-affair-to-remember

I think that would be more accurately

The government is applying the minimum effort needed to ensure a no deal Brexit while doing even less to cater for it.

To be fair the government are working towards what the 52% supposedly voted for. I don't think anything but a hard brexit would give the UK what the majority of people voted for. I voted remain but I think what's been offered by either Theresa May or the EU isn't Brexit.

To be fair the government are working towards what the 52% supposedly voted for. I don't think anything but a hard brexit would give the UK what the majority of people voted for.

Perhaps, if the referendum had been sold as:

x here = remain in the largest trade organisation in the world which saved our asses when they let us join

or

X here =We leave now, dont pay our bills, have to negotiate with the EU after reneging on existing agreements, and hope for a deal for our planes to fly, boats to float and trade to continue whatever tariffs might be added to increase our prices and lower our businesses competitiveness ..

Oh and by the way we've got to finally come up with a proper solution to the Island of Ireland issues, including a probable reintroduction of a border to even get WTO trade with anyone at all ...

Oh OH and expect workers and environmental rights and International business taxes to decrease ... generating an 3 extra jobs in 300 companies at a tax PO at a Birmingham address ..

BUT as actually sold to the public by Farage and Davies and Faux and Redwood and Johnson and Gave

* There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.

* The day after we vote to leave we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.

* Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards in any negotiation.

* The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history

* and of course the dailymail

The world queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit: America is clamouring for a deal while talks are set to begin with Australia, South Korea and India

I voted remain but I think what's been offered by either Theresa May or the EU isn't Brexit.

I agree

The real story behind any potential trade deals

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-trade-deals-customs-partnership-eu-impact-theresa-may-plan-a8332411.html

eg:

US

Wants to send us bleached chicken and hormone grown beef and privatise the NHS based on US models - and the model AINT Obamacare

India

Happy as Brexit will remove the UK's block of them getting a trade deal with the EU

..etc etc

I agree with both of you. It seems to me that Boris and co decided what they thought the 52% wanted and tried to dominate the Article 50 debate and Mrs May's agenda with their view. I haven't seen anything that suggests they've spoken to many Leave voters.

Someone in the Guardian said the other day that the difference between the 1982 vote and now is that in 1982 the terms had been agreed, rather than voting for a 'blind' Brexit.

I booked a flight for early April 2019, but apparently there will be no planes in or out of UK after Brexit.

Well, got to polish my walking boots and hope my old knees don't give up on me on the way to Madrid...

Hopefully they'll let me in knowing that I travel from UK...

I booked a flight for early April 2019, but apparently there will be no planes in or out of UK after Brexit.

Well, got to polish my walking boots and hope my old knees don't give up on me on the way to Madrid...

Hopefully they'll let me in knowing that I travel from UK...

You'll be Ok as long as its jet2 or an EU airline and not British Airways.

The UK haven't got the staff to stop anything coming in or the cocum to change anything

... else coming back might be a problem ... if that is a problem to you

As (SOME) Tories show their consciences, tin pot wannabe dictator Corbyn shows his true colours

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-jeremy-cobyn-labour-party-eu-leave-remain-a8626871.html

"In an interview with the German newspaper Der Spiegel, Mr Corbyn was asked if he would stop Brexit. He replied: "We can't stop it. The referendum took place. Article 50 has been triggered. What we can do is recognise the reasons why people voted Leave.""

Democracy can go fish when you've wangled the result you want ...

As (SOME) Tories show their consciences, tin pot wannabe dictator Corbyn shows his true colours

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-jeremy-cobyn-labour-party-eu-leave-remain-a8626871.html

 

"In an interview with the German newspaper Der Spiegel, Mr Corbyn was asked if he would stop Brexit. He replied: "We can't stop it. The referendum took place. Article 50 has been triggered. What we can do is recognise the reasons why people voted Leave.""

 

Democracy can go fish when you've wangled the result you want ...

and as Corbyn confirms that stance, despite the statements of his shadow 'team' we can now understand Corbyns 6 rules and whether they will apply to him ... and they will

Understand that Only staying in the EU can deliver the six rules, and Corbyn has repeatedly ruled out staying in the EU

No deal can deliver the 6 rules, so there will be no deal, Tory or Labour ... if Corbyn has his way.

If you want a no deal Brexit - Vote Corbyns Labour.

not just the brexit issue, but Corbyns entire approach and clear (IMO) dictatorial intent means I, despite being a life long Labour voter, have now solidly confirmed that I will never again vote Labour as long as Corbyn is leading it

and as Corbyn confirms that stance, despite the statements of his shadow 'team' we can now understand Corbyns 6 rules and whether they will apply to him ... and they will

 

Understand that Only staying in the EU can deliver the six rules, and Corbyn has repeatedly ruled out staying in the EU

 

No deal can deliver the 6 rules, so there will be no deal, Tory or Labour ... if Corbyn has his way.

 

 

If you want a no deal Brexit - Vote Corbyns Labour.

 

 

 

not just the brexit issue, but Corbyns entire approach and clear (IMO) dictatorial intent means I, despite being a life long Labour voter, have now solidly confirmed that I will never again vote Labour as long as Corbyn is leading it

Incredibly I have to agree with you on this one.

and as Starmer adds to Thornberry stating a peoples vote (democracy) is on the table despite Corbyns statements that ... 'no way are you getting a say if I have my way.

... But only after a general election ... WHAT!!

Now why would anyone who believes that a peoples vote on the end game of Brexit is not only a democratic requirement, but an essential right (whether they want to stay in the EU, or NOT) .. vote for a party who's leader says and believes 'no way are you getting a say if I have my way.

Corbyn is the vote for hard Brexiters, anti-democracy and division NOT for bringing the country together.

I think even large parts of momentum are starting to see that.

 

 

If you want a no deal Brexit - Vote Corbyns Labour.

 

No deal Brexit is Brexit though I would argue. We can't have half the things Brexiteers were promised if we tie ourselves in any way to the EU.

 

not just the brexit issue, but Corbyns entire approach and clear (IMO) dictatorial intent means I, despite being a life long Labour voter, have now solidly confirmed that I will never again vote Labour as long as Corbyn is leading it

 

That's often the struggle socialism goes through and why Socialist governments often sadly end in bloodshed of some sort. Too much opposition to what's right, and humans like conflict; so fairness, equality and working together. All the good things we could have are opposed.

Politically speaking though he's not stating anything other than facts, in saying that Article 50 has been triggered. And like any true socialist all we must do is look at the reasons why people voted one way or the other and work to bring everyone together. I can't see what's wrong with that assessment.

Politically speaking though he's not stating anything other than facts, in saying that Article 50 has been triggered. And like any true socialist all we must do is look at the reasons why people voted one way or the other and work to bring everyone together. I can't see what's wrong with that assessment.

Its quite clear to see that is NOT what he is doing.

What he IS doing is pressing his own agenda in the face of clear conference decisions

and dishonoring democracy, conference and the party members in the doing.

Come on Jase,

Who is stating Labour Party and conference policy – Corbyn or Starmer and Thornberry?

And when you realise it ISNT Corbyn, you also realise that his squarks about democratic vote and him being choice of the party was fine

…. until the party says something he doesn’t want – then its ‘to hell with that’

Corbyn hasn’t got a democratic bone in his body.

And when one of his cronies convinces him to shut up and pretend he’s on board with party policy ‘until he’s in power’ or at least got a general election

– why should anyone believe him?

Anyway, dumping on Party policy and conference democratic decisions aside for the moment:

What is Corbyns plan re Brexit then?

He wants a general election,

so why the heck should people vote for just another politician who has demonstrated not one single answer?

All we’ve heard is just the same old soundbites that we heard from all the other Brexiters Johnson, Davies, Faux, Smug et all – we will get a deal that’s good for Britain and protect jobs, we will carry out the will of the people BLAH BLAH BLAH

At least May is going through the motions of pretending to find a solution.

There is not one whit of evidence or detail on whatever the heck Corbyn intends to do NOW IS THERE?

I’m damned sure The people don’t just want more of the same BS.

Anyway, even that also aside for the moment.

Lets look at something that Mcdoughnut has given half of an iota of blurb on:

Renationalise water

yayyyyyy says everybody ….. until the detail of the billions of debt the water companies are in which has gone on dividends to ‘shareholders’ and massive payments to ‘bosses’ while leaving the infrastructure literally leaking like a sieve.

They haven't even got the credit rating to raise loans to upgrade their sewers.

Doughnut going to privatise the billions in debt and dump it on the taxpayer is he?

The companies if they weren't monopolies would be bankrupt - as both Tory and Labour Governments have allowed over the years with the money going to holding companies and the interest payments on the loans for those dividends used to reduce tax payments.

Well Jase,

Lets have a real world answer to just these three very basic questions for starters and then perhaps anyone with a brain might give a moments attention to a thought that it might not be just frying pan into the fire with Carbuncle and Doughnut.

Well with Johnson (the fat stupid Johnson - not any of his siblings) and the Brexiters shrieking its a betrayal and they can never agree to xxxx

... Despite not officially being able to have read the proposals at the time of shrieking ...

One can only assume that Rabb or one of his associates' have leaked the docs to the arch brexiters in advance of when they and the other MP's should be seeing them

... and with all the other opponents for various reasons

May must be relying on Corbyn to whip up support for her Brexit plans

Well, with the 'deal' broadly here, while we wait for the various parties within parties to respond, lets do a roots breakdown.

The referendum.

As I see it there were four main streams of votes

* Those who wanted out of the EU end of - for whatever reason - voted leave

* Those who believed the lies of easy deal getting all benefits of EU plus extra for the NHS plus we do what we like with all those other countries begging for a deal with us - voted leave

* Those who thought remain was the better option - for whatever reasons - voted remain

* Those who just wanted to kick the establishment in the nuts - for whatever reason - voted leave

So here we are over two years later and we have the reality and the deal:

* No one significant queueing up to deal with us

* If we want some the benefits of EU markets we abide by the EU's rules

* We still need to sort out the Irish border issue

* We still need to sort out flights beyond the transition

* Holidays in the EU should be visa free (yayyy says king - and me)

May says there are three options:

* No deal,

* Her deal as the best thats available (broadly true I think in real terms)

* we dont leave the EU (the threat she probably used to her hardline Brexiters)

and I thinks she's right:

* A general election with Labour under Corbyn winning even by a tiny amount (the Tory fear) would just be more of the same, at least Brexit wise - and I genuinely think Corbyn would love a UK with a collapsed economy as Germany was before WWII.

* A general election with even a Conservative party the biggest by one, would just be used as 'validation'

* May being deposed would really demand a general election whether one appeared or not, with a high risk the replacement would BOOST labour votes in any following general election

* A general election with a hung Parliament is even more of the chaos we have

* NONE of the above would change the EU's stance in any real way except in VERY small areas. They have been consistent throughout.

Who does Mays deal actually deliver too?

* Not the hard brexiters (yet)

* Not the remainers

* Not the deceived leave voters

* BUT it possibly delivers something to some of the 'nut the establishment' leave voters - not a lot though.

If there was a general election, I dont believe Labour under anyone could do a deal in any way better than Mays. The EU has been remarkably consistent on all major issues.

That seems like reality to me.

So what are Mays choices

If the various sub parties, like Smugs 'we want a low tax, low environmental control, low workers rights. tax haven UK group' start calling for amendments to the deal as they say they will (as others have too) - then that almost certainly throws the whole deal out as far as the EU is concerned - and Unless Corbyn whips Labour to vote with May; which he might as he wants out, we are down to two choices

No deal Brexit

No Brexit

What the first referendum SHOULD have been, with honest information given to the voters.

Even after all this time I challenge ANY Brexiter to give a single supportable tangible benefit to the British People that we can reasonably expect from Brexit which is not overwhelmed by the downsides.

Depending on the votes coming up, Calling a second referendum is Mays catch all to prevent a general election which Corbyn could win, although Corbyn Winning is by no means certain

- I think a hung parliament is quite likely - leaving us even deeper in the mire at the mercy of minority 'kingmaker' groups..

... That referendum should include the three options -

* Leave no deal (we leave - end of)

* Leave with Mays deal (Whatever that entails - I'm not sure)

* Dont leave - we remain part of the EU under our existing rights if we can.

NOT

Leave no deal

or

Leave with Mays deal

.. with people voting for first, second, third choice, with the last place choices votes being then added to those peoples second place choice to give a real consensus result.

It's pretty intense at the moment, isn't it? Resignations this morning - five last time I looked and Rees-Mogg's lot calling for a no confidence vote.

Who knows where we'll be by the end of the day.

It's pretty intense at the moment, isn't it? Resignations this morning - five last time I looked and Rees-Mogg's lot calling for a no confidence vote.

What actually gets to me the most is that both May and Corbyn prattle about the voice of the people, and the peoples choice, and will of the people

Yet both are absolutely opposed to actually giving the people a voice,

... May at least has the excuse that its what the powerful in and behind her party want

... little dictator Corbyn in the face of Party, conference and momentums' wishes

I think that defines exactly what is wrong with politics in the UK - the main parties run on their agendas NOT the peoples.

Who knows where we'll be by the end of the day.

How true.

I struggle with both the parties talking about the will of the people.

Fair enough, there was a vote to leave, but ever since various factions have been interpreting what they think people actually meant when they answered a very basic question in the referendum. I think the worst are Ress-Mogg and the ERG.

It was the will of the people who got us into this mess. Our democracy works on the basis that we elect members of parliament to make complicated decisions on our behalf yet the then government abdicated its responsibility and left it to the likes of Mrs Miggins at number 39 to decide something that the public were hopelessly incapable of understanding the consequences of.

The referendum was democracy for democracy's sake.

Had the decision been left to parliament, as it should have, it would have voted no.

Who is stating Labour Party and conference policy – Corbyn or Starmer and Thornberry?

 

And when you realise it ISNT Corbyn, you also realise that his squarks about democratic vote and him being choice of the party was fine

 

…. until the party says something he doesn’t want – then its ‘to hell with that’

Corbyn hasn’t got a democratic bone in his body.

 

And when one of his cronies convinces him to shut up and pretend he’s on board with party policy ‘until he’s in power’ or at least got a general election

 

– why should anyone believe him?

The party has shifted hugely to the centre over the last 30 years, and what has been happening in the Labour party is re-aligning themselves with the left. It's a tough position to be in when confronted with so many attacks from within your own parts, but Jeremy has made a career of opposing the Labour party after the leadership aligned them with the Tories.

Anyway, dumping on Party policy and conference democratic decisions aside for the moment:

What is Corbyns plan re Brexit then?

He wants a general election,

 

so why the heck should people vote for just another politician who has demonstrated not one single answer?

 

All we’ve heard is just the same old soundbites that we heard from all the other Brexiters Johnson, Davies, Faux, Smug et all – we will get a deal that’s good for Britain and protect jobs, we will carry out the will of the people BLAH BLAH BLAH

 

At least May is going through the motions of pretending to find a solution.

 

 

There is not one whit of evidence or detail on whatever the heck Corbyn intends to do NOW IS THERE?

Of course he wants a general election. He wants to be Prime Minister, but he can't really say what their position is categorically because Brexit is very much all roads lead to nowhere. He can't vote with the Tories, he can't campaign against Brexit as half the country voted to leave. The liberal Democrats can easily set their policy around having a second referendum as they carry very little political weight these days. It's also worth remembering that politicians have very little power these days and when people talk about democracy it's very difficult to understand what version they're talking about.

I’m damned sure The people don’t just want more of the same BS.

That's what Brexit is though. Everyone involved is going round and round in circles trying to effect the "will of the people" with very little power to actually change anyone's lives for the better.

Renationalise water

yayyyyyy says everybody ….. until the detail of the billions of debt the water companies are in which has gone on dividends to ‘shareholders’ and massive payments to ‘bosses’ while leaving the infrastructure literally leaking like a sieve.

 

They haven't even got the credit rating to raise loans to upgrade their sewers.

 

 

Doughnut going to privatise the billions in debt and dump it on the taxpayer is he?

The companies if they weren't monopolies would be bankrupticon - as both Tory and Labour Governments have allowed over the years with the money going to holding companies and the interest payments on the loans for those dividends used to reduce tax payments.

Simple answer. I'd imagine he'd use a form of quantitative easing for public spending. He's mentioned using this for public services before. That's the state we're in ... it get's to a point where no one has any idea, and no one has any real power where the answer is to basically create money out of nothing.

But, surely looking at the poor state the water companies are in is a good thing.

Simple answer. I'd imagine he'd use a form of quantitative easing for public spending. He's mentioned using this for public services before. That's the state we're in ... it get's to a point where no one has any idea, and no one has any real power where the answer is to basically create money out of nothing.

Well only one half answer there, and the lowest importance one at that. Very Corbyn.

So you think he will nationalise the debt that has been used to pay dividends

and then 'just' print money (quantitative easing) to pay it?

So do I

learning from what the Torys are doing to the NHS would be better -

Set them unreachable targets and then fine them for not reaching them. Nationalise the profitable bits and leave the debt with the rest in the private sector while the profitable nationalised bits just take over doing the rest - at cost to the private companies.

Canada deal for when Farage starts again (darn good pick Boris made there. He makes BS really sound real)

Also understand that the background and ethos to the Canada deal is to create a more level playing field

- a major issue to Smugs low tax, low workers rights brigade desires for Brexit Britain.

How wwe benefited from the EU signing the deal

"The deal will inject £1.3 billion to the UK economy, boost exports by almost a third and create thousands of new jobs."

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-welcomes-historic-eu-canada-free-trade-agreement

A brief summary but you do have to read it carefully to really understand why it is a massive backwards step for the UK and who actually benefits (major corporations)

https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-could-the-eu-canada-free-trade-deal-tell-us-about-brexit/

Note

May is repeatedly saying "we will be leaving on 29th March 2019" - which clearly means her deal exit or no deal exit as far as May is concerned

This is probably why Corbyn is keeping shtum

So its up to parliament to demand a New referendum over the next few days

I have no doubts whatsoever that the EU would allow extensions for a democratic vote.

Note

May is repeatedly saying "we will be leaving on 29th March 2019" - which clearly means her deal exit or no deal exit as far as May is concerned

This is probably why Corbyn is keeping shtum

 

 

So its up to parliament to demand a New referendum over the next few days

 

I have no doubts whatsoever that the EU would allow extensions for a democratic vote.

This will probably play out via an amendment saying the deal needs approval based on a 3 way vote by the people

Of course smug, Davies + Corbyn et al will be pushing for a no way vote - just exit amendment.

We should see this all flare up as the deal goes to parliament.

How many peoples vote Mp's that will stand up are there?

What will Corbyn whip? Would even he dare whip against Party and Conference policy?

....

It was the will of the people who got us into this mess.

That is so patently false.

The referendum was always about discord within the Tory party NOT about will of the people. 'The will of the people' is still just an excuse.

... Then it ended up as manipulating the will of the people with lies.

Had the decision been left to parliament, as it should have, it would have voted no.

We are seeing what the will of parliament is now: broadly pushed and shoved by powerful minority interests, driven by self interest. All still shouting 'WE are the will of the people"

"Let us all unite. Let us fight for a new world – a decent world that will give men a chance to work – that will give youth a future and old age a security.

By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfill that promise. They never will!"

Charlie Chaplin The Great Dictator