Ref your first sentence, TJ, the Guardian don't think the EU will play along.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/12/eu-to-wait-and-see-before-rethinking-brexit-timetable

What to do?

Some of us dream that the sensible grown ups will take over...

They keep saying that the majority of parliament don't want a hard Brexit, but they seem to keep being stitched up by the governments ridiculous games and manoeuvering.

Ref your first sentence, TJ, the Guardian don't think the EU will play along.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/12/eu-to-wait-and-see-before-rethinking-brexit-timetable

I'm sure they have had enough of the UK's 'aspirations' of cake and eat it from both main parties.

They will see the events as purely UK power politics/special interests with no honest negotiation.

The EU are starting to see the benefits of companies and investment moving to the EU from the UK, while we see planned lorry parks and businesses told to stockpile.

The EU pain will be short and relatively small, unlike ours

(ours being the population NOT the Brexit politicians with interests in the few benefiting businesses or personal agendas).

How long would anyone here have gone on negotiating with a potential business partner or supplier in these circumstances?

They would have had their 'offer' thrown out and a letter before action sent long ago.

Yes, companies are moving. The company a friend of ours works for lost patience after the messing about this week and announce that it's moving from London to Paris, with the resulting loss of jobs.

What to do?

 

Some of us dream that the sensible grown ups will take over...

 

They keep saying that the majority of parliament don't want a hard Brexit, but they seem to keep being stitched up by the governments ridiculous games and manoeuvering.

Lets NEVER forget that without the so called 'oppositions' ridiculous games and maneuverings, the Party 'in power' would never have got away with their ridiculous games and maneuverings.

Bare in mind that from what we can make of Corbyns intentions, its just to replace May with Corbyn with the same 'renegotiate' some half arsed deal or crap out BS

Gets us nowhere.

I seriously question Labour would win an election as things stand anyway.

.. and where would that leave us?

... maybe rid of Corbyn - which is a thought ...

.. although I do seriously doubt Corbyn wants a general election, he just want to be handed the keys

Its seems almost certain the Tories would choose a general election in the case of no confidence, rightly IMO as Corbyn has NO mandate from the people, albeit wrongly as it would solve nothing and likely make things worse.

The only other option is a fresh referendum before a vote of no confidence happens

... and of course May, the ERG and Corbyn are opposed to that .. which probably means its in the Nations best interests NOT those politicians.

which is why the ERG might push for a no confidence with Corbyn ..

A general election which will of a certainty resolve nothing

rather than a referendum, which could

i must be missing something significant

Although I dont doubt partnering with the DUP and ERG is quite acceptable to Corbyn whatever the cost outside his goals, I find it hard to believe the majority of the PLP would see it that way, or the majority of labour supporters

The SNP, libdems etc have already said they would support labour in a vote of no confidence,

but it seems to me a general election would make a peoples vote LESS likely - especially with a Hard Brexiter at the helm of both 'main' parties in the election!!! and we come out of the election with the situation largely the same as it was before it started....

What am i missing?

It went well in Brussels last night, then? They don't seem to have given May anything.

Jean-Claude Juncker said it isn't Europe's job to satisfy demands of rebellious Tories.

In a moment of poignant hilarity in the most serious events to happen in Britain since suez,

you just gotta larf at smugs new honorific after his asinine latin tweets

- Tossuss Poticus

https://www.indy100.com/article/jacob-rees-mogg-twitter-theresa-may-latin-no-confidence-vote-conservatives-8681296

I really need to find or create a poster with the Brexit crew + 'would you trust your children to the care of these men' because anyone voting Brexit ... is.

Smugus Tossus Potticus, Baldric de faffer Johnson, Evil Wallis, Do nowt Davies, Renege Raab, Jezebel Corbyn, DUP, Hunt the Hated (how many kids have his NHS policies already killed?)

Would any of you trust your kids in their hands?

If you answer yes, you should really be questioning your parenting instincts.

Flabbergasted fly on the Wall reporting again on what was heard

May : Hello again enemies of Great Britain

Eu : Good day to you madame May, we thought you had gone home

May : Well you haven't given me the cake and eat it deal yet for starters but I did take YOUR deal home, but the people who want nothing to do with you still want more from you. They still want their cake and eat it, but with no responsibilities either now

EU : But Madame May, the deal you have had these many years was already the cake and eat it deal which no one else can have, and Madame May, you know that negotiations take two sides with something to offer, not one side who wants everything.

May : Well you wont get that 39Billion pounds we owe you unless we get a deal, and that 39B is worth less in euros and dollars every day you make us wait. It will be worth nowt by the time we pay.

EU : but Madame May, this non negotiation has already cost us more than that 39B UK pounds already. We simply cant afford to pay you more to buy that 39B any more, especially as it will be worth nowt by the time you pay.

{silent pause}

May : look, all I need is for you to say that trashing the good friday agreement and dumping the responsibility and costs for the border and the broken good friday agreement on you - is up to the UK government alone.

You know you can trust us to aspire to that.

EU : Exactement Madame May Exactement.

Something from an arch Corbynite that is worth a read

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/labour-prepare-second-referendum-peoples-vote

and see the future hard Brexit ethos - moving military officers into key positions under the excuse of 'they are capable people' which they are ... they are also 'bound' to obey ...

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/no-deal-brexit-military-drafted-in-to-help-government-planning_uk_5c1287bde4b0835fe327b461?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

Now that wasnt written on the side of Baldric and Blackadders brexit Bus - was it?

Stupid thing is the no deal scenario is the only one that was forseeable 2 years ago

Why do you say that, EB?

TJ, that article is quite scary. What worries me is the lack of anticipation and offloading planning onto the army the way they did for the Olympics, as the article says.

TJ, that article is quite scary. What worries me is the lack of anticipation and offloading planning onto the army the way they did for the Olympics, as the article says.

Yes - very scary - Especially when taken in the context of a government that

* Wanted all the negotiations held in secret

- AKA you hear the 'a bright and prosperous future is within our grasp' right up until 'O by the way, any of you who were planning on flying abroad today - aren't'

* Tried to invoke dictatorial Henry VIII powers to bypass Parliament and the people

* Was held in contempt of Parliament and consistently demonstrates contempt for the people, parliament and the democratic process

* Constantly states 'impossible' results are expected

I'll qualify that by saying I believe that once those dictatorial powers were invoked, I don't believe a Conservative or Corbyn government would ever let them go.

Stupid thing is the no deal scenario is the only one that was forseeable 2 years ago

To some extent I agree, but it has only really become clear in the last few months that Davies effectively did nothing, and just how far the Brexit cake and eat it, world in the palm of our hands claims are and ALLWAYS were from any reality - despite some (mainly but not exclusively ERG) still spouting them.

Lets NEVER forget that Brexit was NOT sold as Hard Brexit as we now understand it

- its was sold as still have the benefits PLUS everything else.

I had some doubts despite looking into the detail far more than most would (my path from unknown to reasonably sure is on here if it hasn't been deleted or amended) - I have no such doubts now.

I agree, they've been very secretive and tried to exclude parliament which should be representing democracy. The Henry VIII powers were also scary and I wouldn't want any government to have them.

May seems to have kicked the can down the road again, possibly until the end of January unless parliament steps in. That leaves two months before Article 50 expires.

Not quite what you were saying, EB [i don't disgaree with you], but I think this Guardian journalist has summed up the options rather better than I remember our politicians doing it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/westminster-2016-brexit-british-politics

Not quite what you were saying, EB [i don't disgaree with you], but I think this Guardian journalist has summed up the options rather better than I remember our politicians doing it.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/westminster-2016-brexit-british-politics

That is absolutely spot on in the parts it addresses

- and indirectly highlights what most of us simply weren't aware of at the time of the referendum.

Even some of the politicians could use some of that to mitigate their criminal misinformation tactics during the run up to the referendum, but there is NO reasonable excuse now.

(theres also the worldwide deals lies)

It would be good to know the other options which could be delivered in the transition period of the withdrawal agreement.

It would be good to know the other options which could be delivered in the transition period of the withdrawal agreement.

Given the utter failure of even agreeing an acceptable withdrawal, comprising mainly of:

1. The amount we owe - which is simply bean counters coming to an accommodation give or take a couple billion

3. The exit or move into transition date (largely pre-defined to certain limits)

2. Mutual Citizens rights - which is simply agreeing a tit for tat level that could easily be 'none' for us as we dont let most ex pats vote although certain Tories wouldn't like losing their rights in the EU

3. How long the transition will last (largely pre-defined to certain limits)

3. Something protecting the Good Friday agreement Irish border issue ...

ie. What should be easy stuff that everyone should agree with

... I think your answer is that it is expected that Sweet Fanny Adams will be agreed in the transition period.

The continuing clamour for a second referendum is not a peoples vote in my eyes. France, Denmark and Ireland voted to leave the EU and were cajoled into a second vote where the answer was more acceptable to those who see it as their right to be in charge. Greece voted to go but their govt was effectively sacked and the machinery of state taken over by a german technocrat.

I say that the no deal was the only forseeable and predictable result because if you look at the supreme courts decision on MILLER you will see that they make it clear that treaties are not law and all you have to do to leave the EU is repeal the 1972 act of parliament that got us into the EEC in the first place. They then warn of the consequences of doing this regarding domestic law over the past 45 years, not to scare people but to make it clear that a million bits of legislation could no longer be law and consideration needs to me made about that if you go for the repeal rather than using the terms of the treaty.

so if you take this as being the baseline anything negotiated has to be better than that situation to be called a success but somehow we managed to get a deal agreed witht he EU that is worse and then TM wonders why parliamnet wont swallow it and the populace all hate it for different reasons. No dount the second referendum will go ahead and they expect that we will vote for calm and stay in the EU but I dont think that is a certainty. there are many who see the demand for a second vote as being antidemocratic and would vote to leave rather than remain the second time round to force parliament to do its job rather than just hope or pass the buck.

If you put it to a popular vote the chances are hanging would be brought back so when you have a system of government those in power have to be careful what they promise the electorate.

Labout are in big trouble because the largest leave vote margins are in labour strongholds so they have this problme of appearing to ignore their supporters wishes and wanting to go into an election of a platform that is the antithesis of that voting outcome. It might make the coffee table socialists of Camden happy but ask people on Stoke what they think and they will gte a very different answer. The unemployed of the once industrial cities have nothing to lose so a no deal brexit that costs others their security wont bother them.

The opposition front benches still have more ex public school members than the govt front benches so they are not in a good position to claim they know what the man on the Clapham omnibus thinks and I beleive they would be making a mistake to nail their colours to the remain mast, which is why Jeremy ( a natural anti-EU person) wont appear in front of the cameras making demands like Kier Starmer (Reigate Grammar school) does. When this all goes to pot you wont get a snap election, the tories arent goping to allow TM to chuck it in and lose them their fat pay cheques, you will just get more transition without a final agreement on what and when. When all is said and done they are all politicians and want to be playing the game and seen to be looking important.

Labout are in big trouble because the largest leave vote margins are in labour strongholds so they have this problme of appearing to ignore their supporters wishes and wanting to go into an election of a platform that is the antithesis of that voting outcome.

To a large extent yes.

Which is why they are just sitting back letting the Tories implode on their differences, which is exactly what would be happening to Labour if they were in power, and is a large part of why a general election wouldn't just solve nothing, it would just further infect the labour party just as it has the Tories.

I think Labour is closer to the brink of dissolution than the Tories are or ever will be. You will only ever get a few Tory defectors - and those more likely to shift to UKIP not some new democratic party.

Labour on the other hand ....

Now this actually makes a lot of sense for a short article, and includes what should have been what that [Danny Dyer explicative] Cameron should have been sorting in his renegotiation rather than trying to protect criminal bankers.

Although i do think Leave Hard Brexit No deal should again be on the card as one of three as long as it is presented as it really is.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/second-brexit-referendum-europe-vote-remain-eu

As May mutters its the peoples voice that the people should not have a voice

MPs not to 'break faith' by demanding people get a vote

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/16/brexit-pm-to-urge-parliament-not-to-break-faith-with-the-people

Overheard at a government meeting:

The DUPe Group was heard to say:

'Dont be ridiculous, you have 10 opinions, thats more than enough!

The person at the head of the table added:

'After all the effort in having that bus poster made, and David tirelessly attending those 4 meetings, each almost an hour long, and in just two years, how could you betray their trust?

'anyway Its the voice of the people that the people's voice must NOT be heard, and Jezza and I are unanimous in this.

Of course, when May says that a fresh Brexit referendum would be betraying the voters,

... she does mean the 10 voters comprising the DUP