Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Sec127 (3) repealed, now gone. S. 127(3)-(5) repealed (6.4.2007) by Consumer Credit Act 2006 (c. 14), ss. {15}, 70, 71(2), {Sch. 4} (with Sch. 3 para. 11); S.I. 2007/123, art. 3(2), Sch. 2
    • We used to recommend that people accept mediation but our advice has changed. The mediation process is unclear. Before you can embark on it you have to agree that you are prepared to enter a compromise – and that means that you agree that you are prepared to give up some of your rights even though you are completely in the right and you are entitled to hundred percent of your money and even though EVRi are simply trying to obstruct you in order to discourage you and also to put others who might want to follow your example off from claiming and even though they have a legitimate basis for reimbursement. Mediation is not transparent. In addition to having to sign up that you are prepared to give up some of your rights, you will also have to agree not to reveal any details of the mediation – including the result of the mediation – so that the whole thing is kept secret. This is not open justice. Mediation has nothing to do with justice. The only way of getting justice is to make sure that this matter goes to trial unless EVRi or the other parcel delivery companies put their hands up and accept the responsibility even if they do it is a gesture of goodwill. Going to trial and winning at trial produces a judgement which we can then add to our small collection to assist other people who are in a similar boat. EVRi had been leading you around by the nose since at least January – and probably last year as well – and their whole purpose is simply to drag it out, to place obstacles in your way, to deter other people, and to make you wish that you'd never started the process and that you are prepared to give up your 300 quid. You shouldn't stand for it. You should take control. EVRi would prefer that you went to mediation and if nothing else that is one excellent reason why you should decline mediation and go to court. If it's good for them it's bad for you. On mediation form, you should sign that you are not prepared to compromise and that you are not prepared to keep the result secret but that you want to share the results with other people in similar circumstances. This means that the mediation won't go ahead. It will take slightly longer and you will have to pay a court fee but you will get that back when you win and you will have much greater satisfaction. Also, once you go the whole process, you will learn even more about bringing a small claim in the County Court so that if this kind of thing happens again you will know what to do and you will go ahead without any hesitation. Finally, if you call EVRi's bluff and refuse mediation and go to trial, there is a chance – maybe not a big chance – but there is a chance that they will agree to pay out your claim before trial simply in order to avoid a judgement. Another judgement against them will simply hurt the position even more and they really don't want this. 300 quid plus your costs is peanuts to them. They don't care about it. They will set it off against tax so the taxpayer will make their contribution. It's all about maintaining their business model of not being liable for anything, and limiting or excluding liability contrary to section 57 and section 72 of the consumer rights act.     And incidentally, there is a myth that if you refuse mediation that somehow it will go against you and the judge will take a dim view and be critical of you. This is precisely a myth. It's not true. It would be highly improper if any judge decided the case against you on anything other than the facts and the law of the case. So don't worry about that. The downside of declining mediation is that your case will take slightly longer. The upside is that if you win you will get all your money and you will have a judgement in your favour which will help others. The chances of you winning in this case are better than 95% and of course you would then receive 100% of your claim plus costs
    • Nice to hear a positive story about a company on this form for a change. Thank you
    • too true HB, but those two I referred for starters - appear to be self admitted - One to excuse other lockdown law breaking, by claiming his estate away from his consistency and London abode was his main home the other if he claims to have 'not told the truth' in his own words via that quote - to have mislead his investors rather than broken lobbying rules   - seem to be slam dunks - pick which was your law breaking - it seems to be both and much more besides in Jenricks case Starmer was director of public prosecutions yet the tories are using seemingly baseless allegations for propaganda and starmer is missing pressing apparent blatant criminality in politics
  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 160 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like

Recording your assessment


Gary44
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 2347 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi Folks

 

I have just had my reconsideration letter through the post and fortunately was successful.

 

I think that this was due to my secretly recording the whole process via a mobile phone. The recording allowed me to quote exactly what I said and point out the "inconsistency's in the ATOS assessor report. Without this recording I would have been at a loss to recall a fraction of what I said, and what the assessor said and given the numerous distortions and assumptions made by the assessor it was a godsend.

 

I don't know what other people think, but I would advise anyone undergoing the PIP/ESA process to try and get a recording of any and all communication with the DWP or their contractors.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

 

I don't know what other people think, but I would advise anyone undergoing the PIP/ESA process to try and get a recording of any and all communication with the DWP or their contractors.

 

First, well done.

 

Second, whilst I would agree with the above suggestion, claimants should be aware that whilst the ESA assessment does allow Maximus to arrange for an official audio recording (must be requested in advance, very limited numbers of machines so may well delay matters and/or lead to multiple cancellations), there is no similar process for PIP. You can of course make an unofficial recording yourself, but should be aware that if you are discovered and refuse to stop recording, your assessment may be terminated on grounds of 'failing to participate' which is likely to result in your claim being refused. Also, there is as yet no official guidance as to whether such recordings can be accepted at the reconsideration or tribunal stage.

 

The machines required for an official recording are beyond the means of most claimants, however one strategy I have seen in practice is to have one phone out on the desk/table openly recording, which can be switched off with appropriate apologies when spotted, with another in a pocket or whatever as back up.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, can only reinforce RMW advice above, whilst I have always covertly recorded my dealings with ATOS/DWP/JCP if on an assessment you're caught doing so, then they can, and often will terminate the interrogation and strike you from the list.

 

There are plenty of relatively cheap covert recording devices on the market, that are very good, and very discreet, alternatively a simple dictaphone in the pocket.

 

Just don't get caught, or as I like to do, put them to the trouble of getting a recording device from somewhere in the country down to your location.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I have found with only a few days to spare (four months spent away from 'my home' due to a violent neighbour, documented in another subforum) that I've got my second medical on Thursday. As I established that the woman working for ATOS last year repeatedly lied I'll be recording my assessment, legally or otherwise. I will ring them tomorow to request this, and I'll be attempting to assert using my equipment, but if it doesn't pan out there's no way I'd go through this [problem] without protection. Last time I actually got permission to record well in advance but was told on the day that I couldn't, amazingly enough, which surely must entail misconduct. She said she had no record of the request to record. She also said only they could record and not me, when I had clearly remembered seeing that we an make our recordings, and in view of the reality of these procedures it would be a potentially grave error not to.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have found with only a few days to spare (four months spent away from 'my home' due to a violent neighbour, documented in another subforum) that I've got my second medical on Thursday. As I established that the woman working for ATOS last year repeatedly lied I'll be recording my assessment, legally or otherwise. I will ring them tomorow to request this, and I'll be attempting to assert using my equipment, but if it doesn't pan out there's no way I'd go through this [problem] without protection. Last time I actually got permission to record well in advance but was told on the day that I couldn't, amazingly enough, which surely must entail misconduct. She said she had no record of the request to record. She also said only they could record and not me, when I had clearly remembered seeing that we an make our recordings, and in view of the reality of these procedures it would be a potentially grave error not to.

 

Whether or not you can request an official recording depends upon whether the assessment is for ESA or PIP, there is currently no facility for an official recording of PIP assessments. If you can get permission to record an assessment yourself (the provider and the healthcare professional both have to agree), you are required to use equipment which can make two simulataneuous recordings onto either cassette tape or CD, no other equipment or format is acceptable. This type of equipment is of course extremely expensive and beyond the means of most claimants.

 

If you do try to record an assessment yourself without permission or using equipment which does not meet those criteria you will almost certainly be asked to stop, and if you do not the assessment and your benefit claim are likely to be terminated.

 

That said, I totally agree that recording assessments or any other dealings with ATOS, Maximus or DWP is essential and I wouldn't dream of not doing it, you just need to be subtle about how you go about it.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Really, they're that specific about format? So if I ring tomorrow to ask to do recordings they'll tell me this? The leaflet isn't specific like that. I can see why they might hold this to be necessary, even if it's essentially b.s., but I would think also in a court of law or tribunal there is facility to assess that a recording hasn't been tampered with

 

So the thing then really is to just do it but be shrewd. What is the legal position though with actually using the recordings as evidence later?

 

I have told the council as well that because of their misconduct against me any future discussion is something I'd need to record but I wondered if there is some fascistic law in place to dismiss independent protection. I currently need to learn about legal attack protection but I'd be unsurprised to learn all the supposedly legal sprays and alarms advertised online aren't really legal and that safety is a matter of luck. It feels like the same kind of thing as these recording laws, an institutionally crafted way of stripping us of protection.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The DWP regulations regarding acceptable recording equipment are indeed that specific, and if you phone tomorrow to ask for your assessement to be officially recorded it is likely to be postponed as the providers only have a few machines which have to be shipped about as needed.

 

If you decide to record covertly you do need to be very subtle about it and you absolutely must stop recording instantly if you're caught. The legal position of such recordings has yet to be tested at tribunal, though I do know of at least two cases where a transcript of a covert recording wasn't challenged.

 

In general, if you wish to record telephone calls there is no need to ask for permission or tell the other person that you are recording, and there are plenty of apps which will automatically record all calls. If you wish to record face to face conversations then whether or not you need permission from the other person depends on where you are. In your own home, you can freely record whatever you like, but if you're in someone's office, for example, you do need the other person's permission.

 

As for your other enquiry, it's not something I know anything about so I won't comment.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

As far as I am aware there is still nothing in english law preventing anyone from making clandestine recordings (Electronic Contemporaneous Note) of any medical assessment. This electronic document, which is how the tribunal would view it, is admissible as evidence in a tribunal and is treated the same way as any other piece of evidence that you might wish to submit. There are a just few rules for the disclosure of electronic documents and these can be found under the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

I can't provide a link as I haven't posted enough yet but if you search Google for "Civil Procedure Rules" + "Practice Direction 31B" it should take you there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...

i secretly recorded my first assessment and then pointed out the inconsistencies in 2015 and am still awaiting a decision. they would not accept my recording.

 

my second assessment - i requested for this to be recorded. unfortunately, it was only a part recording. i can be heard in the actual recording even saying "as discussed before recording" - various things were omitted from the assessment from my entire recording versus their partial recording.

 

my advice would be to make both, your own secret recording and their own recording (they give you a tape at the end of it, albeit only a partial recording)

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...