Hi,

Just wondering if they finally took you to court or did you appeal to the ombudsman please?

Hi,

 

Just wondering if they finally took you to court or did you appeal to the ombudsman please?

Hi. You would be better starting a new thread of your own as the OP hasn't replied to a message from last year.

HB

Hello, yes you are right you most hold back from any fine payment all together and stand strong. The more people who do this the stronger we will be.

Let me fully explain all the facts here:

This is purely a cost cutting exercise. The most important thing that you should know here is that the political right wing has spread widespread mis information (backed by the newspapers) about benefit fraud. This policy we are talking about here is not about preventing fraud but is one of many examples of Austerity measures to attempt to penalise the poor and charge them for it. The very fact that the organisation has placed full responsibility on the service user for any claim of exemption, telling them they have to know the exemption rules for themselves and for the organisation not to accept any responsibility any form filled out by a claimant is sadly yet another toxic legacy of Margaret Thatcher. This punitive charging policy, like many cost cutting and punitive measures in the taxing/welfare systems: DWP/HMRC is part of that legacy that lives on to this day.

Margaret Thatcher started a reactionary politics called Neo-Liberalism, a politics that was to be continued to be pursued by the Conservatives, Lib Dems, UKIP and by New Labour. (The Labour party no longer pursues Neo-Liberalism) One of the defining ideological aspects of Neo -Liberalism is 'Each of us is responsible for ourselves and no-one else is responsible for us' 'The Poor must work out and solve their own problems'

The fact that the claimant is told to read the form and work it out for themselves has origins in this ideology.

Neo-Liberalism is a form of capitalism was founded by a US business man called Milton Friedman before the 2nd World War. With other business men from around the world, he formed a society in a chalet on the Swiss Mountain Mont Pelerin. It became dominant here in Britain from the 1980's onwards.

I too have experienced this policy for myself. Back at the start of 2016 I was asked to sign this form at my dentist surgery, I had been made redundant and was registered as unemployed. On the NHS system I was recorded as exempt and in receipt of an in work benefit. I was told by the woman on reception don't worry. Then several months later the same letter that you are describing was addressed to me. I was on a work placement at the time and I went to the Job Centre to stamp and sign to get full cost exemption. I was quite shaken by this and did not understand why they were doing this. In 2017, I was registered again at the Job Centre. I went to the dentist and filled out the same form myself and ticked the income related benefit. Another letter was addressed to me again. This time saying that there was a reason why I should be paying the full fee, and then saying I should be knowing this for myself.

In actual fact the rules for those registered for the income related benefit reflect the rules about how much money they will get weekly based on the abount of savings they have. So effectively a claimant must have the full money being paid to them in order to be fully exempt from NHS dentist fees. Those who only get part of the money or none at all, only the pension contributions, have pay partly of fully towards their treatment.

My mother had discovered by accident from a call back from a union rep when I complained to him about. She rang up the NHS centre and got me to get a doctor's note with a £20 fee in order to request fro assistance in that claim which I thought was unacceptable. This has made me feel angry. Had she not got involved I would have myself not agreed to pay anything more than the actual surgery cost.

I believe without doubt that this policy has to be resisted by everyone. Have you seen the Ken Loach film 'Daniel Blake'? If not you should find out if you can see it or get the DVD. There needs to be some kind of direct action taken.

I had an inspection at the dentist a few months back which I wasn't charged for. I never gave it a thought, it was the first or second time I'd been there since I became a pensioner and came off pension credits. I didn't know then I'm supposed to be charged for everything. Later, along comes a fine. I should have paid, they said. I wasn't charged, I said. I should have been and I should have been aware of how much I should have been charged, they said. Well... that's risible so we know these people are idiots straight away. They are saying the practice told them I signed to say I was exempt. That's not how I remember it at all. I asked for evidence. Can I see a copy of this form, I asked, assuming they must have a copy. They say they have nothing they can show me as they were informed digitally. I wish them well in taking me to court then, or indeed anyone else they're trying to blag money from without having any evidence to support their claim. I suspect this may well be why we hear of no-one being taken to court.

the paper for treatment has the question on it, they automatically fine you over a period of time that you fail to pay, longer not pay them then the more you will pay, do not flog a dead horse, it will cost you more , in our case wife on £1.48 a week, ( wrong Ji in their eyes, me on a pension, they did not want to know and I took £80 from my pension to pay them how else was she going to pay them,= pay up they are not going to change procedure (more Tory led schemes)

Ombudsman what a sick joke.

I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

When you say the paper for treatment has the question on it, do you mean the form you fill in and sign when you go to the dentist?

Are you saying they reduced your pension by £80pw?

For how long and why?

How could they do this legally?

Were you taken to court? Have you taken any legal advice about this?

Why do you mention an Ombudsman?

Which one and what did they say or do?

All they've been able to threaten me with is debt collectors.

Why would they treat you differently?

SWLABR9

Think you are reading Old Coggers post incorrectly.

They have not said there pension was reduced by £80pw, they have said they took £80 from there pension to pay the fine.

If the fine was paid they wold not have been taken to court.

Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman: https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/

The NHS Counter Fraud Authority (Investigatory Powers and Other Miscellaneous Amendments) Order 2017: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/960/made

correct = Stu

Are you saying there's a government agency which acts as judge and jury all by itself without any trial, and that this agency can issue its own fines?

Are you saying there's a government agency which acts as judge and jury all by itself without any trial, and that this agency can issue its own fines?

Yes, there are many.

HMRC, NHS, DWP to name 3

Are you saying there's a government agency which acts as judge and jury all by itself without any trial, and that this agency can issue its own fines?

Is this not a civil penalty ?

If you don't pay it and they cannot recover by other means, they can take you to Magistrates.

Is this how this works ? Same way as if you did not pay penalty applied by local authority for taking children out of school ?

Um.. point is, they admit they have no evidence they can show me. I've asked what evidence they have so I can challenge it. It seems I'm being fined, or threatened with a fine, on the basis of what they say the practice said. How do I or anyone know they aren't simply making these unsubstantiated accusations up at random? They're telling me I have to get a letter from the practice denying what they're saying the practice has already said. Er, I have no authority over the practice to compel them to do this. On top of which, it's not my job to establish my innocence, it's theirs to establish my guilt, which obviously, they can't begin to do. This appears to be a government-sanctioned revenue gathering [problem], nothing more.

Speak to practice manager about this. They should have asked you about your entitlement, before they put the paperwork through.

Whenever I have asked for prescriptions or had dental treatments etc, I am always asked whether I am entilted to it for free. On the back of prescriptions are boxes to tick. At Dentists, the receptionists ask the question etc.

They did know. I know them personally there and we'd chatted about it in passing. Later on, after a couple more visits, I had to explain how an HC3 works as they're only familiar with HC2s But that's by the by, I popped in to advise other CAGgers of this https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/nhsbsa.nhs.uk

I might add, the significant aspect here is that there's no evidence they did put the paperwork through. None at all. They offer no evidence I was anywhere near a dental practice on the date specified either (and I've been careful not to admit it either). So why am I being fined? This is a [problem] and nothing more.

A further point, they've threatened me with 'debt recovery proceedings', not debt collectors. Does this have specific legal meaning?

I just challenged it online again and this time they've accepted it. Ha! Thanks to all for their assistance and advice.

Good to know, well done.

(I stuck to my gun and that was the last I heard from them)

Conclusion: It's worth fighting if you think they're in the wrong.