Has anyone had a similar experience with A&L as me?

A&L changed their payment requirements to obligatory Direct Debit-

I signed the direct debit mandate and sent it off-

A&L made a mistake on my account number-

Therefore the required payment was not debited from my bank account-

Of course, I did not notice that A&L had not taken the money, until later when I checked my bank account.

Because of A&L's error I am now considered to be in arrears with my payments

and constantly being charged £25 for arears.

I have tried writing, to no avail and A&L's last letter states -

"We have a right to charge our expenses for administering your account when it is in arrears"

To date I have been charged/fined £250 with A&L penalties

I have today sent the preliminary letter from The Library to A&L, Customer Service Centre, Carlton Park, Narborough, Leicester, LE19 OAL by Royal Mail Recorded Delivery.

Without a doubt A&L will suggest that I take my complaint to The Financial Ombudsman, but we all know that the FOS does not deal with contract law.

Wish me LUCK ...and if anyone has any advice, I will be most pleased to hear from them.

Thanks - angry cat

Nope, you're doing just fine.

Welcome, keep us posted.

Hi Guys!

Just to keep you updated-

As You are aware I sent off the Preliminary (Library) letter 21/03/2006.

I have received the expected 1st reply 24/03/2006 - Computer Generated of course! the letter enclosed - "Your Guide to Complaints" Alliance & Leicester

From-

A&L Narborough LE19 DAL

"I am writing in response to your recent communication and was very sorry to learn of your dissapointment with the service you have received.

Thank you for taking the time to highlight your concerns, we are currently looking into the situation and will be writing to you with a more detailed response.

In the meantime, I am enclosing a leaflet which explains the steps we will take to handle your complaint.

Yours sincerely,

I would expect to hear from A&L again within 28 days after they have looked into the situation!

Therefore, I have to be patient but I will keep BAC up dated.

Angry cat

Hi Guys-

Well I finally received the A&L response to my request for the refund of £250 + interest on the penalty charges that have been levied on my A&L mortgage account and I am astonished...!

I quote-

"May I first of all clarify that there have been no penalty charges made to your account. The charges made are in respect of additional administration required for letters requesting arrears" "I would draw your attention to Condition 18.1 of the Terms & Conditions of the mortgage. which confirms our right to charge expenses in revovering monies owed"

A&L recently changed their required payment method to, just Direct Debit and then made a mistake on my account number when I set up the Direct Debit Mandate, because the Direct Debit did not go through on their required date, the A&L computer classified my account as being in arrears, but factually it was their fault and previously I had paid the account in by cheque.

"The A&L Mortgage Conditions 1997 (England & Wales)

Section 18.1

EXPENSES

18.1 Examples of our expenses include all costs and expenses which we incur:

(a) In any legal proceedings relating to the mortgage (whether brought by or against you or any other person);

(b) In exercising any of our rights or powers given to us by Statute or these conditions:

© In recovering any of the money that you owe us:

(d) In protecting our security;

(e) In insuring the property:

(f) In transferring or discharging the mortagage;

(g) In releasing the property or the property rights or any plan from our security;

(h) In doing any work or making any payment which is needed to put right any failure of yours to keep to these conditions;

(i) In discharging or tranferring the mortgage;

(j) In doing any work which is needed to any private road or street leading to the property;

(k) In taking out any replacement plan;

(l) In complying with any request you or anyone acting for you makes to us;

I THINK THAT THIS IS THE RELAVENT ONE---

(m) IN CARRYING OUT ANY ADMINISTRATIVE WORK OR PROVIDING ANY ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES IN CONNECTION WITH THE MORTGAGE OR THE PROPERTY. ANY ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS WE CHARGE WILL BE NO MORE THAN THE AMOUNT WHICH WE REASONABLY ESTIMATE TO REPRESENT THE COST TO US OF DOING THE WORK IN QUESTION.

A&L do not mention Section 18.2 !??

You must pay us all expenses in full, unless you show that:

(a) we incurred them unreasonably; or

(b) the amount is unreasonable."

Yes, this does go on a bit and I am begining to feel extremely confused, but of course that is probably what A&L desire.

Obviously, my original intention was to be able to claim back 'Unfair & Disproportionate fees that have been levied by A&L

I am prepared to take them to Court, as stated in MY LIBRARY letters that I have sent, but factually 'HAVE I GOT ANY HOPE WITH THIS, OR AM I TIED UP WITH THEIR 'TERMS & CONDITIONS???

Perhaps Mortgages are different to Bank Accounts & Credit Card Fines.

The last para of the letter states-

"I appreciate your reluctance to accept responsibility for the necessity of the reminder letters when payments are outstanding and the resultant charges. However, it would be unfair to pass on the cost of adminsitering accounts which fall into arrear to those customers who make payment without fail each month. Therefore, the charges will stand and I am unable to justify your request for them to be waived. In accordance with regulatory requirements, I must advise that if I do not hear from you within the next eight weeks our file on this issue will be closed. I am enclosing our leaflet" (again) " explaining how to progress this matter, either through our internal procedures or, if necessary, via the Financial Ombudsman Service, should you remain dissatisfied. I do hope, however, that we have now resolved this situation and if you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

Pam Green

Customer Relations Manager

Collection Department - Alliance & Leicester"

Okay Guys ! that is my response from A&L regarding the preliminary Library letter and pre action letter--!

ADVICE NEEDED HERE - PLEASE!!

Thanks

angry cat

Did you send a formal request under the DPA for details of charges?

If not, do so now. The letter includes the question relating to manual intervention, at which point they can - if they have it - give you specific details.

If you have sent the DPA request, is this how they replied, or did you get the info seperately?

I think we need to know more details about what exactly has happened in previous correspondance in order to fully help out....

Hi-

Thanks for your prompt response-

I did not need to send the DPA disclosure request, because I have all my statements-

I simply sent the (Library preliminary letter) requesting a refund of £250 which represented the fines that have been levied plus interest on the fines.

However, if you think it necessary I could request a DPA disclosure showing proof of manual intervention....

I have all the letters sent by A&L and they clearly do not show any manual intervention - they are 'Computer ganerated letters'

It seems clear to me that A&L are not going to budge on this issue-

It is really unfair becuase I am actually only one month in arrears, but not by own fault...

As previously stated, A&L changed the method of payment and could no longer accept cheques. They messed up the Direct Debit mandate by getting the account number wrong by one digit which resulted in their not being able to collect the money and then stated that I am in arrears-

I am in arrears because of A&L's mistake.

Please advise and if you require any more information, perhaps I could PM you?

Thanks

angry cat

Hi.

A DPA request is only of use if they argue manual intervention, which they don't, or if you don't know how much they owe you, which you do.

Don't let the pompous language put you off, this is just a standard "you're bound by our T&Cs" answer, and we all know that's a load of cobblers.

Did they charge you? Yes.

Was the amount disproportionate to the "work" carried out? Yes.

Then, it's a penalty charge.

Are they willing to pay you back? Obviously not.

You've done 1, 2 letters, then sue.

Thanks Bookworm !

I kind of expected the type of response letter that I received from A&L

They are quoting terms and conditions at me, which in my opinion is designed to confuse !...and of course, it is hard for someone who does not have a legalistic expertise.

I have checked out some of the other A&L victims stories that have been posted in the forum and the reading shows that A&L are being difficult.

I have been on to the OFT website "OFT's action on credit card default charges"

and have noted a para which mentions mortgage charges-

"There is also a read across of the general principles in this work to other default charges in consumer contracts such as bank overdrafts, store cards and MORTGAGES. We are inviting the banks and other financial services businesses to review such charges accordingly"

A&L state that my "charges are not penalties, but charges made are in respect of additional administration required for letters requesting arrears"

A&L obviously love to play with words, thereby confuse the consumer!!

OFT "A default charge can only be used to recover certain limited administrative costs. These may include postage and stationary costs and staff costs and also a proportionate share of maintaining premises and IT systems"

The OFT consider "Where charges are set at more than £12, the OFT will presume that they are unfair"

It cannot possibly cost Alliance & Leicester £25 to send out a letter ???!!!

Should I try one more letter to A&L quoting the OFT's statement of its view of the law?

or should I just take the matter to the county court.

Thanks

angry cat

If you have already issued the LBA, then you should issue the court claim (presuming of course you have passed the 14 day deadline for their response).

As always, it's your money, your deadline - you take control.

Hi Guys-

I have decided to send a DPA disclosure request, even though I have all my statements because-

Ms. Pam Green of A&L is stating that-

A summary of the last six years is that during 2000 seven letters were sent three of which incurred a charge. In 2001, five letters were sent with no charge and in 2002 six letters were sent and no charge made. In 2003 seven letters were issued five charges were made three of which were subsequently waived. A number of these letters that have been sent ar the result of your failure to respond to the first reminder..

In 2005 eight letters were issued and three charges made" (this is when they changed the payment method from cheque or cash to obligatory Direct Debit which they messed up by missing a digit off the account number) I wrote a letter of complaint - " An offer was made to waive the charges providing you cleared the arrears. You chose not to respond to the letter (not true) or settle the outstanding payment and your account remains (1 month) in arrears"

Ms pam Green is quoting a lot of letters here and I am uncertain if they are just all computer generated or had manual intervention???

However, one thing is for certain, it does not cost A&L £25 to send out a letter. Therefore the cost of sending a letter to me, must be disproportiate? Yes!

I am most apologetic about my rambling post, but I want to get this RIGHT...

I have just printed off the County Court Claim form to fill in and then take to the court tomorrow-

or should I obtain the DPA request first. even though I have all my statements, I do not have copies of ALL the letters Ms Pam Green is referring to.

Thanks

angry cat

If they chose to defend the court action, at least in part, then it will be their responsibility to provide the court with a complete breakdown of their charges, the cost involved with dealing with each default (i.e. failed direct debit) and any other manual intervention they might claim.

To do so would leave them open to future problems, so they are very unlikely to do it.

From what has been written in this post so far, my advice is the court claim...

Thanks jonni2bad-

for your advice. which makes perfect sense-

I will go ahead with the County Court Claim-

Having got this far, it would be extremely frustrating to have to wait for up to 40 days, for the A&L DPA disclosure, which most likely will not tell me anymore, than I already kmow-

The charges are disproportionate.....

at the end of the day, only the court can decide as to whether £25 is a Fair amount for A&L to send a letter?

Kind thoughts to you, in all your claims!

Thanks

angry cat

Hi Guys!

Well, I filled out the County Court form and duly took it along to my local Court.

However, I had not completed the form correctly! The Court officials were very nice and gave me quite a lot of advice on how the form should be completed, but...

I am now begining to panic, because the charges relate to my Mortgage and...

I have been reading some of the other posts on the BAG forum that relate to claiiming back Unfair Charges on a mortgage account. I begining to wonder, if by pursuing the charges I may be on shaky ground, A&L could get difficult.

Claiming back charges on a mortgage appears to be a bit of a 'Grey Area'? and of course, I don't want to get into deep water with A&L mortgages as obviously they hold the deeds to my property! They could get difficult and I do not need any more trouble & strife with banks.

Having said that, I consider that the charges were excessive, dissproportionate and wrong.

The form is ready to be submitted to the Court but to be frank, I'm a little afraid about the consequences and I'm not a scardy cat.

What to do, what to do? should I be brave, or would I be foolish?

Advice Please

Thanks angry cat

OK, the worst that can happen is Abbey defend, and you all end up in court, even if you lost you claim for charges, what is the worst that could happen? You can even ask a buddy to go with you if need be....

As far as I can tell you would only lose the costs...they couldn't just revoke your Mortgage on the basis you tried to claim some charges back!

Im sure you will be fine, just pre court jitters!

Also, I have not forgotten about the other issue, as Its complicated, we are still trying to work out your options.

Good Luck!

Lou xxxx

Hi Lueeze-

Thanks for your response!

It's not that I am afraid to go to Court, I am more concerned about A&L mortgages being difficult as I understand that the charges in relation to mortgages are more complex and of course, I do not want any further problems.

After looking at the OFT's statement about penalty charges, their statement appears to refer to credit card charges and I get the feeling that bank are 'climbing on the (proverbial) bandwagon' about this statement! However, I have noted that the OFT also stated that their is 'Read Over' to other charges and they actually do mention Mortgages.

I am sure that you are only too well aware of all the stress, that this causes.

However, I shouldn't allow A&L to get away with charging £25 for sending letters, when probably the letters simply cost 50p to send via a computer-

Did you know that A&L charge also charge a massive redemption fee? which is a disgrace. How can they get away with it, still I suppose that is another story...

Thanks for your support:)

angry cat

Hi Guys,

Advice required PLEASE!

I until recently had a variable rate mortgage with A&L. The mortgage was taken out on 17 July 1991 and was redeemed 19 October 2006 = the period was just over 15 years and three months.

A&L charged a £295.00 redemption administration charge. I believe this charge constitutes an unfair penalty and I wish to claim the charge back from A&L. Is there a template preliminary letter that I can send, to start the ball rolling also....

I wish to claim back charges from A&L that are in relation to the above mortgage.

Should I send two preliminary letters to A&L requesting refunds, one letter relating to charges and the other relating to the early redemption fee? Or should the preliminary letter requesting the refund of charges & the redemption fee, be all on one letter.

Thanks Guys

AC

Redemption fee is normally a fee that involves the removal of A&L from the deeds and the cost for them to get them out of storage and to send them out to you. I was unaware that this was an unfair charge?

Early Redemption Fee is the cost of you not fulfilling your contract e.g fixed rate period. again I did not realise that this was an unfair charge.

I would be keen for a response from a mod on this one?

Hi Kingliam-

Thank you for your response!

In my case I have been charged £295.00 for redeeming my mortgage with the A&L early and I believe the charge is a penalty.

please see the following:-

Fight these penalty charges | This is Money

The information that I require is-

Would it be correct to send one preliminary letter asking for a refund of charges + the ERC or should I send two letters-

one that relates to the charges and..

one that relates to the ERC

Obviously, my preliminary letter has to tie in with the ultimate issue of an N1 County Court Claim, eventually.

AC

Okay Guy's, I'm Back!!! and....

Back with a vengence. Grrrrrrr

A&L cannot do anything to me now:)

My Mortgage account is closed, I closed it.

To use the Rhett Butler classic phrase in 'Gone With The Wind'

"Frankly, my dear (A&L) I don't give a damn."

Revised Preliminary Letter all ready to go off to the charmers at A&L.

I am claiming 21 Unlawful Penalty Charges plus the Early Redemption Penalty Charge plus interest, that were levied on my mortgage account, this amounts to over £1,000.00 Okay, not a massive amount compared to some of you guy's. However, it is a fortune to me and...an emphasis must be placed upon the fact that I was anxious about getting into the ring with A&L prior, because I considered that they could make my life even more miserable by withdrawing my mortgage:(

Ha Ha...Fiddlesticks to you A&L...you cannot hurt me anymore:)

I want my money back and be very sure that I will take this to the bitter end.

Love AC

Hi AC. We meet again.

Although your mortgage was with A&L, there is probably better knowledge and support in the Mortgage Companies forum. Let me know if you want your thread moving there.

kingliam some people pay thousands in ERC's and I really can't see the justification or fairness of that. I suggest you look in the Mortgage Companies forum too.

Well you've been at this longer than me AC so I will watch and learn.

Hi Caro

Yes Please, I think it would be for the best if you could move both posts to the Mortgage Companies Forum and perhaps merge them. Maybe it would be better itf the title is changed to Angry Cat v Alliance & Leicester.

I have been looking at the Mortgage Companied Forum and just realised that one can claim back 12 years as opposed to six. I have all the statements but would it be more prudent to make a full subject access request under the DPA.

Love AC

Oh I dont know about that Caro...

I think this is the case of "Softly, Softly Catchee Monkey" !

LOL

I would be grateful, if you can merge and move both posts re: A&L to the Mortgage Companies Forum.

Love You

AC

Interesting, I will certainly look into that one then!

Having re-mortgaged twice so far and I have another one coming up in 2007.

Please accept my appoligies for my un-informed response!

There you go then AC and welcome to a whole new forum kingliam. I have a feeling you will be starting your own thread soon so good luck both of you with this. I know you won't let this go until you win AC so keep us posted.