Hi

Is it ever possible to find out how much a debt has been sold on for?

My old bank (Co-op) sold my two debts onto Cabot (when they desperately had to dump old and non productive debts) but the DCA remained as Fredricksons.

I have continued to pay this but as I am a disabled pensioner on pension credit which does not keep up with the cost of living I was looking to take my life back and try to get Cabot to agree to accept a write-off with a token payment.

So far, against everything they said, they have raised a complaint against Freds that I did not make in any way, investigated that non-complaint which I did not agree to or know about, and totally ignore what was simply a request to consider writing off the debt, and told me they would not enter into any further communication about "my" complaint.

I have now raised an actual complaint about the fact that they seriously misled me and completely failed to respond as they had promised and described. In short, nothing was conducted or replied to that I was told would happen - nothing at all.

No response at all for nearly two months. I will take this up with the Ombudsman if only to raise the issue that Cabot have lied and misled me, raised a complaint I did not make and failed to respond to a complaint that I have made.

But as part of my fighting back, I would like to know if I have any chance with requesting the information about how much Cabot paid for my debts because if it was the proverbial peanuts, then I must surely have repaid it all by now.

Has anyone ever found this out and if not, is it a secret that is enshrined in tablets of stone that no-one has ever breached, and if so, does anyone know why we cannot have this information?

Hi ismylife and welcome to CAG

The details of purchase are contained within the Deed of Assignment...(this is a commercially sensitive document that is not normally available for disclosure unless ordered to by a court)....but as a guide its commonly estimated to be in the region of 10p - 25p in the £1.

Rather than worry about what they paid for it why not send a section 77/78 request and request a copy of any agreement (loan or credit card not overdraft) the fee is £1 and the template can be found in the CAG Library.

If they fail to comply within the 12+2 days of your request..then they are in default and unable to enforce any of the requested agreements....and if they are in default...then its your choice to withhold payment....until compliance.

Regards

Andy

Thank you andyorch.

So, this commercially sensitive information means that the Cabots of this world get to pay peanuts the debts but then rake in the money over and beyond what they paid for it.

I'm assuming that the remains of the original debt is then written off as tax relief by the creditors, so they have not lost out at all and in effect, that written off debt could then be said to have been paid for by the taxman, the Govt, whatever?

I wanted to know in case I could use it as leverage if necessary so that is good to have the ball park figure. Personally I think the selling on of debt should be made illegal, but then this country is morally bankrupt in the main now anyway so that's never going to happen.

If I send that section 77/78 request and they do comply in time, I guess that doesn't help me much at all?

I'm searching the library now.

what type of accounts were they?

and when was the sale.

sorry but it sounds like you've been treead as what we call a cashcow

dx

Hi dx100uk

Sorry I'm having problems with my internet connection and keep getting booted off. Yes, cashcow does sound about right for how I'm feeling.

The sale was in March 2013. One was a credit card and one was a loan with the small overdraft having been added to the loan debt some years back (2009 I think).

The Co-op did write to me to let me know and Cabot then wrote afterwards "welcoming me to Cabot" - I'm sure it was a warm welcome since they must have seen me coming, and they mentioned confirmation of my "relationship" with Freds remaining in place. I feel like something is crawling over my skin when I re-read that.

But all this makes me think they've done this properly and have the paperwork all set up from the Co-op.

It's rare that individual debts are sold, it's usually a large batch of debts put up for auction to the debt collecting companies, in which case no real purchase value can be attached to a single debt as a lot of the debts will be fast approaching statute barred date while other are simply not collectable.

Thank you, Conniff. That does make sense. Well, mine would not have been statuted barred and clearly I was paying my agreed monthly payments so something was collectable.

If I send them the section 77/78 request and they comply, that does not help me, does it? Or have I misunderstood?

I had another question I completely forgot last night. The Co-op passed my debts onto Freds just for collection back in 2009 or thereabouts. But the Co-op still kept the ownership of the debts.

When they sold them to Cabot, I was told to keep my 'relationship' with Freds ie to keep paying as I had done and communicating etc.

But when I called Cabot to ask if they would consider writing off my debt, in the course of the long convo, they said that they would have to ask Freds if they would be prepared to pass the debt back to Cabot and that until they had agreed this, they could not come to a decision because it was Freds who were 'in charge' of the debt, or some similar wording.

Now, I do not see why Cabot could not simply take the decision if they actually own the debt, and they have never answered this either. Is this them just taking me for a ride and I was well and truly lied to that day? Surely Cabot own the debt, Cabot can take the decisions?

I don't pay much per month on these but I'm thinking of just writing to Freds / Cabot and telling them that due to my ever tightening circumstances, they will have to accept £1 per month if they won't agree to write it off for a token payment. I was going to use my DLA of a month just to get rid of the misery of the debt, but if they won't accept that, then they'll have to see the payments reduced to rock bottom.

if its a card and a loan

send cabot a CCA request for each debt

and get an SAR running to the co-op.

odds on 90% of the debts are penalty charges and PPI.

are these debts on your credit file.

dx

and stop phoning fleecing DCA's

they are NOT BAILIFFS

and have

NO SUCH LEGAL POWERS.

the reason whythey wont write of the debts is because

they can see on their screen and by talking to you that you are a prime cash-cow candidate

they don't want to lose their free money income.

dx

I keep getting logged out. :o(

The PPI first.

I received all the paperwork from the Co-op when all the financial institutions had to send it out in 2013

and still have it and have never used it because I'm honest I guess.

The PPI was refunded back in 2009 when I kicked up a stink with the Co-op because of my circumstances in being effectively forced to leave work and then being told the PPI would not be honoured.

That's a whole other story but it was a very bad time and space mentally for me and although I could have tried for constructive unfair dismissal, the whole thing was too overwhelming and I was not at all well.

If I filled in the paperwork and make the claim, it would be dishonest frankly.

I have not had any contact with Freds since 2011 because the last time I wrote to them, they could not be bothered to respond.

Cabot's comment about this which was what they said was part of my complaint

(how can anyone complain they've not been bothered by a DCA??)

was that because Freds had an ongoing repayment plan in place

(which they never responded to agree to in 2011),

they had no cause to attempt to contact me.

Cabot will not respond to me any more to deal with my complaint about the handling of my request

and how they raised a complaint I did not make,

and that I know I can take to the Ombudsman which I believe will cost Cabot.

I know I cannot force them to accept my offer to close the debt,

but I can take the payments down to £1 per month and tell them to go coco for anything else.

It will be more costly to collect the debt than the money they get too.

Do I even have to tell Fredricksons or shall I just reduce the payments,

send a letter to Cabot to tell them why,

tell them to discuss it with Freds and leave it at that?

Forgot the last answer.

Yes, the debts are on my credit file but they don't seem to have had any effect on my day to da

y living such as changing to a new phone company.

I only have a basic bank account with one bank

and an old Barclays account which I really do not use any more

and no credit or store cards.

I just do not want them and that keeps me safe.

well IMHO forget about all that in the past

get 2 CCA requests sent off as advised

you might not have to ever pay anything again.

sar to the co-op too

you need all the statements

dx

well IMHO forget about all that in the past

 

 

get 2 CCA requests sent off as advised

 

 

you might not have to ever pay anything again.

 

 

sar to the co-op too

you need all the statements

 

 

dx

Ditto

Hi Mike770 and all others who have responded.

I am sending the 2CCA requests as advised

not sure about doing the SAR with the Co-op because I seem to remember doing this before

and I do have a load of paperwork which I seem to remember is right and tight.

However today I have another development.

Cabot have ditched Fredricksons and I have received comms from another DCA called Debt Managers (Services) Ltd in Rotherham.

It's at least a better comm than the last shoddy lot used to send out BUT,

if I am now going to dispute this with Cabot,

can I just ignore their instructions on how to continue paying?

Do I need to let them know I am in dispute with Cabot?

what do you mean by right and tight?

if they sold the debts on theres a reason for it - find it.

pers I'd do nowt but send the 2 CCA's and await the returns

then post them up.

dx

It's a long time ago, dx100uk, but I seem to remember that the reason for doing the SAR was to make sure the original loan and the credit card debt were enforceable. That is, there was no loophole for me to get out of it due to incorrect form filling etc. That's what I meant by right and tight.

Co-op sold the debt around the time they were having embarrassing difficulties and again, my memory is not good these days, but I think they had to do something asap to sort out their own finances which had come to light as pretty dire.

It was back in 2013, if that's any help for anyone who remembers.

I'm not going to get in contact with the new DCA. I will just send those 2 CCA's and wait and see what happens next and update the thread as and when.

well an sar might have gotten you the agreements but if they were enforceable that's another matter

and immaterial now

as cabot own them and MUST themselves provide the documentation & we must then see/get it checked as enforceable.

else they get nowt!

dx

Updates.

First, the DCA began ringing me at home - twice within 40 minutes, hassling me to call them. I didn't answer because I couldn't get downstairs in time so they left messages, which included personal information. Given that I have not confirmed my telephone number with them, they could have been giving this information to anyone!!

I ignored them but was preparing for the harassment to continue.

In the meantime have finally managed to send the Section 77/78 requests - have had internet connection problems and been rather unwell again so just not able to get this sorted until this week. But that has now crossed in the post with a long response from Cabot finally, two months after my initial letter to them which I received today.

In the letter they state that the notes from my original phone call (which they cannot access a recording of for technical reasons!!!) make no mention whatsoever of my request for Cabot to write the debt off but only that I'd phoned them to complain about Fredricksons.

The letter states that the notes made by both operatives I spoke to only mention my "complaint". How convenient that both sets of notes say the same thing and nothing whatsoever about the actual reason for the call.

I'm a furious about this blatant dishonesty and deception about that phone call because I only mentioned why I would not contact Fredricksons when they mentioned that I should have done so. They said they would have to contact FI to discuss whether they'd hand over the accounts to Cabot before the rep could raise it with his manager.

Anyway, I have been offered compensation of £50 for the trouble and extra costs I've had to try and get a response from them, but they won't write off the debt. What they have done is to recall the debt from the DCA and passed it to their Sensitive Support Team (meh!) So at least that explains why I've not had any more phone calls from the DCA.

What they have also said is that in exceptional circumstances they would consider placing the accounts on long term hold without payments. Well, why not just write the ruddy debts off if they're going to go without payment at all?

So, there is nothing I can do but wait to see what happens with the Section 77/78 requests. Is it 12 + 2 days from the date it should be received? And does the 12 days include the weekend or is it 12 working days?

As for the rest, I don't know how they are going to justify that a 19 minute phone call was to complain that I had not been contacted by a DCA - who in their right mind would care if they'd not heard from a DCA?

Do I respond to this letter or just sit tight for now?

12 plus 2 working days

The perils of phone calls everything in writing only!!

Thanks, theoldrouge. When does the counting begin from?

It's a bit of a bummer because it's going to be an extra day with the bank holiday weekend.

I'm not doing anything by phone now - but should I respond to their letter I got today or wait and see what happens with the s.77/78 requests?

cca is working days from when you posted it

now you know why we say never ever talk to a fleecing dca on the phone...

I'd sit tight

no cca no pay!

dx

Wouldn't pay CAboot even with a CCA:lol:

Thank you. I've not spoken to an actual DCA since .................. 2009?

It has recently only been the one phone call to those *!*!* at Cabot in April. At least it's helped me to feel really gritty about this now. I try to live my life with some kind of moral standards and to try and treat others as I'd like to be treated, but their morals have sunk to a level that has lost all consideration from me.

So, unless they come up with the goods beforehand, I'll be back after the first week in September.

Well you need to prepare for the onslaught telephone harassment next...once they get your CCA request and cant comply....I would recommend that you set your phone to answer and screen your calls...as soon as they here a recorded message they bang the phone down and run for the hills......strange how they dont like to be recorded or leave a message.

I only have a very basic phone as it's what I prefer and can work with so I can't screen calls but I can just not answer them which is what often has to happen when I get those wretched calls from overseas to try and 'fix' my computer!

It's not too much of a problem they can leave messages and I can save them and I have my mobile phone for my family and friends if necessary. I sometimes even unplug it anyway.

Over the years, I've come to realise that there is some kind of collective mental defect that seems to exist in all these financial institutions and that you only have to wait and they'll start making one mistake after another.

So, first mistake was changing the DCA. Once I got their letters that was it - I simply was not going to pay them a thing and cancelled my SO's to FI asap.

Then they're claiming that they cannot access the original phone call - why am I not surprised about this?!? Given their other claims, frankly I'm wondering if they've even doctored the notes and removed that recording from their records. But still, they are never going to be able to explain why it took two operatives, 19 minutes just to take an alleged complaint about a DCA not making any contact.

Now they've taken the debt back, but they've ignored my offer by letter of a token payment of 3% of the outstanding original debt to write the debt off. I was originally prepared (and offered during that phone call) to go without my DLA for a month just to get rid of this which would have been 5% of the outstanding original debt so I could just get it out of my life, but they've declined it.

I cannot even see where the business case is for this - they get less per year from me than one of their managers would spend on coffee in a week and if they'd accepted that offer, it might well have paid the outstanding amount that they paid for the debt from the Co-op in the first place.

And if they cannot produce the CCA, then they will definitely get nothing more. That will teach them to lose recordings, make bogus notes and decline offers to settle!

I'm back a bit sooner than expected. Given that they failed to respond to my letter in June and then took another month to respond to my letter to the CEO (9 weeks overall), I'm beginning to wonder if they monitor this forum and work out who is who where they can.

Am I being a bit over-sensitive or is this likely because they've responded like greased lightning to my request and this gets a bit complicated now.

First the easy one, this is for the Credit Card debt.

Essentially they state they do not have the information but have requested it with a copy of the credit agreement etc from the original lender.

BUT - whilst they acknowledge the 12 day time limit before the account becomes unenforceable, they reckon they will be able to provide this within 40 days.

If they cannot get that info within 40 days, they'll write to me again. So the first question is this - am I now obliged to wait the 40 days or is it 12 + 2 and that's it?

The second letter states that there is no need for them to provide a copy of my credit agreement under the CCA for Current Accounts and Overdraft Facilities.

Now, this is not right because I definitely took out a Personal Loan with the Co-op around 2006 / 2007 and had an overdraft on a current account of around £700.

I have some printouts from 2008 - 2009 in which the Co-op finally merged the current account and PL accounts.

It looks as though the Co-op has merged the two debts into the current account. So does this mean the Loan Agreement was cancelled or does Cabot have to supply a copy of the original loan agreement to show the debt is still enforceable?

Going through the mass of letters and comms over the past 7 years, I'm really very teed off to find how much I was messed about and treated with but then I guess when you're in the midst of the threats and struggling financially and desperate to keep going every day, it's not always easy to step back and review everything to fight back.