Hello,

I have just received a "Notice to Keeper" from Euro Car Parks demanding payment of an £80 parking charge

for overstaying my allotted time by 15 minutes in a private car park in Wish Street, Rye, on 28/05/2015.

I did have a previous letter on 06/06/2015 requesting the Parking Charge, and, after reading many various posts on the board,

decided to take the general advice given regarding 'speculative invoices', decided to ignore it.

That was before I realised that the Law was changed in 2012 making the Registered Keeper ultimately liable for the charge,

and that the "just ignore it" advice was in given in posts that preceded that date!

I did overstay my limit, but I have reservations about the legality of their payment demand,

as they have not substantiated the actual loss to the landowner,

and they also impose various financial penalties for certain payment methods.

I propose to reply to them stating that their demand is illegal for the following reasons:-

1. The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

The amount charged is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to the company or the landowner.

According to the Unfair Consumer Contract Regulations, parking charges on private land must not exceed the cost to the landowner

during the period the motorist is parked there.

In this case, the £80 charge being demanded far exceeds the cost to the landowner of the vehicle overstaying the time paid for by 15 minutes.

It is in fact disputable that any actual loss was incurred by the landowner,

as there were many unoccupied spaces in the car park during the last twenty minutes that the vehicle was there.

2. Your stated Payment Options contain unlawful financial demands.

The additional charges that you levy (£1.50 for payment online and £2.50 for paying by cheque) constitute an unconscionable act, thus rendering the formation of any contract that may have been made with your company null and void.

Would any of you kind experts on these matters please comment on my proposed reply to them, and possibly suggest any improvements that I might make?

As a newcomer to this forum, I would greatly appreciate any assistance regarding this matter.

Thanks and regards

so have you had the notice to keeper?

and was this a ticket on the windscreen or an ANPR capture?

dx

Any chance you could post up a photo of the signage in the car park ??

It won't matter what you put for the first appeal ..... But head the letter "Appeal" and ask for a POPLA code if they reject the appeal.

I assume this was an ANPR job and not a "windscreen" ticket

Hello dx, and thanks for the swift response.

There was no ticket placed on the vehicle. Notification of the alleged offence (on 28/05/15) was received by letter (dated 04/06/15), that contained photographs of the car registration plate entering and leaving the car park at 17:12h and 18:27h respectively.

I did not respond to this original correspondence, and the NTK was dated 26/06/2015

Any chance you could post up a photo of the signage in the car park ??

 

It won't matter what you put for the first appeal ..... But head the letter "Appeal" and ask for a POPLA code if they reject the appeal.

 

I assume this was an ANPR job and not a "windscreen" ticket

Unfortunately we were only visiting that area and did not tale any photographs at the time.. Actually reside in Leicestershire, so it's a long way to travel to take a photo of the car park!

as it was an ANPR ticket then the first letter was within the time allowed for them to contact you as the keeper. The second letter is basically meaningless but it is always woth replying, just to show that you arent going to be bullied nor do nothing and then pay up when receiving threats of legal action..

MY appeal would be that the signage at the entrance is unreadable and therefore insufficient to form a valid contract and even if this is not agreed that the overstay is within the BPA CoP guidelines for cancelling as the aextra time will be due to finding somewhere to park, queueing to exit ontoa very busy road etc and does not reflect the time actualy parked.

IF they do not agree to cancel on these grounds to demand a POPLA code so you may appeal.

If it goes to appeal there are lots of other things to hit them with as well as their rubbish signage.

as it was an ANPR ticket then the first letter was within the time allowed for them to contact you as the keeper. The second letter is basically meaningless but it is always woth replying, just to show that you arent going to be bullied nor do nothing and then pay up when receiving threats of legal action..

MY appeal would be that the signage at the entrance is unreadable and therefore insufficient to form a valid contract and even if this is not agreed that the overstay is within the BPA CoP guidelines for cancelling as the aextra time will be due to finding somewhere to park, queueing to exit ontoa very busy road etc and does not reflect the time actualy parked.

IF they do not agree to cancel on these grounds to demand a POPLA code so you may appeal.

If it goes to appeal there are lots of other things to hit them with as well as their rubbish signage.

Thanks for the helpful reply.

The signage at the car park MAY have been unreadable, but unfortunately I did not photograph the sign and thus have no evidence to corroborate my claim. Should I still make that claim to them? If they later ask what part of their signage was unclear or unreadable, I would have no answer! - and it would mean a 300 mile round trip from my home to obtain a photo.

You mention their rubbish signage; Do they generally have some legal flaws, omissions or errors contained on them?

Could a 15 minute overstay be 'absorbed' as you describe above? Having checked The BPA CofP Guidelines, Section 13 (that refers to ''Grace Periods') does not specify or suggest what this time period should be. Is there a 'standard' or 'normal' grace period that is allowed?

I am sorry to ask so many questions of you knowledgeable members, but being a newbee I am not fully up to speed on the best course of action to take. Its just that I do not like these robbing devils taking my hard earned cash!

Thanks & regards

How is it an overstay though? You never parked immediately, the second you entered the carpark. Youd need time to drive around and find a space to park, then purchase a ticket, put it in your car, then when leaving, navigate out. Plus the allowed grace period needed to do all this. Then theres the whole issue of GPEOL.

These muppets dont stand a chance.

How is it an overstay though? You never parked immediately, the second you entered the carpark. Youd need time to drive around and find a space to park, then purchase a ticket, put it in your car, then when leaving, navigate out. Plus the allowed grace period needed to do all this. Then theres the whole issue of GPEOL.

 

These muppets dont stand a chance.

Thanks for the reply renegadeimp, your input really is appreciated. I shall appeal to ECP on those grounds - although it will probably be disallowed.

Should I still mention in my appeal the points raised in my original post, simply adding the 'grace period' thing to them, or is it better to keep the originally-mentioned points for the POPLA appeal?

Finally, should I request from ECP a copy of the document that legally permits them to act on behalf of the landowner?

Thanks & regards

It doesnt matter if its disallowed. You just want the popla code.

You can appeal to ECP using anything you like. Tell them aliens came down from the planet zog and you had to chase them off with a spiked cricket bat.

Keep all the good legal stuff for popla.

It is for the parking company to prove their claim, not you disprove it so you dont need to go and photograph it, they would have to provide the relevant information to POPLA/ a court if they fancy their chances. The main thing is the sign near the entrance is in an awkward position so you dont have a chance to read it when entering the car park. What you say to the parking company doesnt really matter too much, they arent likely to suddenly change their minds otherwise they go bust!

When you get a POPLA code you appeal to them and go into more detail but there are other points to make at that time.

Thanks once again for the advice. I will get the appeal letter off to ECP and request a POPLA code should they reject the appeal - which they probably will.

This probably means that I shall be bothering you learned GAGgers yet again at that stage!

thats the idea.

Well, I sent the Letter of Appeal to ECP on July 8th, which was based on the points that I mentioned in my first post, and also requested that they issue me with a POPLA code should they think fit to dismiss my appeal. To date I have received no response from them.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that if they have not issued me with a POPLA code within 35 days of the date of submitting my appeal to them, then the Registered Keeper liability disappears. Could any of you learned gents please confirm that this is the case, and also kindly clarify if the 35 days commences on the date of me posting my letter, or if it commences on the date when they received the letter? I do have proof of posting the letter (1st Class) to them, but no confirmation of when they actually received it.

Many thanks in anticipation of your reply on this matter.

David

Dorchester,

I think you are right.

They are now out of time to chase the "Keeper" and can only chase the "Driver". ................ But they don't know who that is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Job's a good'n" :-D

Well done.

Many thanks for your reply f16. Looks like that's one in the eye for ECP then! - which I probably couldn't have achieved without the help of the kind, learned folks on here.

Please do not think that I am being pedantic, but when does the '35 days' count start? Is it from when the letter is posted? From scanning many posts, all that I get is "They must reply within 35 days" or "They have 35 days in which to reply", but no where does it say when the 35 days starts or ends! Does anyone know for sure?

Thanks & regards

David

In law there is deemed delivery 2 days after the letter was posted so the 35 days is 35+2 days from the posting date. They have no extra allowance for delivery in their time to respond.

In law there is deemed delivery 2 days after the letter was posted so the 35 days is 35+2 days from the posting date. They have no extra allowance for delivery in their time to respond.

Many thanks ericsbrother for the full and concise answer, for despite lengthy searching, I failed to find a definitive answer.

You have just confirmed to me that Euro Car Parks have obviously decided not to pursue this matter with me. So very many thanks once again to you and all fellow CAGgers who have assisted in this victory against the "robbers".

Regards,

David

In the hope that it may be of assistance to other board members, I attach a copy of the actual letter (above) that I sent to ECP

Regards,

David

ideally you should not be using the word penalty

gives them some meaning of authority

they cannot charge a penalty.

dx

ideally you should not be using the word penalty

 

 

gives them some meaning of authority

they cannot charge a penalty.

dx

Thank you for your correction. You are absolutely correct dx, but in my defence, the letter was written several weeks ago, when I was totally ignorant with regard to these 'robbers' and their underhand tactics. Since then it has been a steep learning curve for me.

I now fully realise that these 'robbers' have absolutely no authority and even less credibility; attributes that they will never possess!

Thanks & regards,

David

OK, now you wait for them to get things wrong. do not contact them again, if you get the POPLA code all well and good, we can help with that but if they dont respond in time with the code then they lose the right to claim keeper liability and you dont want to be reminding them that

Thanks to your excellent and concise information given to me earlier in this thread ericsbrother, I confirmed in Post #19 that they are now out of time to chase me as the RK! So that's one in the eye for ECP - and all thanks to you wonderful learned CAGgers.

Thanks & regards,

David

Thank you for your correction. You are absolutely correct dx, but in my defence, the letter was written several weeks ago, when I was totally ignorant with regard to these 'robbers' and their underhand tactics. Since then it has been a steep learning curve for me.

 

I now fully realise that these 'robbers' have absolutely no authority and even less credibility; attributes that they will never possess!

 

Thanks & regards,

David

so anyone using you letter should change the word penalty to speculative invoice.

all that needs to be done. no big issue.

why don't you do that

and upload the new version

as yu say

it will be useful to people and we thank you for it