Hi,

Me and my wife have been on ESA(joint claim) for roughly 4 years, it's been for stress and anxiety which we have both tried to deal with. We've asked doctors for help, and received nothing but referrals which took ages to happen, but eventually both have received medication and various types of therapy.

Unfortunately, during these years other problems have also cropped up. I myself suffer from chronic migraines, I get 3-4 a month that completely put me out of action for a day or 2, and have headaches that impair my regular daily function at least 2-3 times a week, which I can just about manage with medication. However, 5-6 times a year I do have 'super migraines' which cause me to black out. I don't pass out, my body carries on, but I don't remember anything and just get little flash backs to remember what I do. Which, as my wife tells me, is always the same. I basically lie on the floor screaming in pain for hours until I end up in hospital for 2-3 days. I've been like this for just over 3 years, stress seems to be a big part of the cause of all these attacks. I'm currently doing some volunteer work 2 days a week at a charity shop, hopefully working towards being assistant manager (job I've done before, and honestly I find it calming more than stressful) but I need to be able to be flexible on my days because the attacks are random so I may need 3 days off when I should be there for 2 of them. Which is why full time work is a definite no right now, obviously though it needs to be 24 hours to be entitled to Working Tax Credits, otherwise we'd not be able to make enough to make sense signing off, the Job Centre have made me turn down 2 jobs for this reason last year

My wife does not have the migraine issues, but she does suffer anxiety and stress a lot more than me. She also has asthma, osteoarthritis, and had an operation on her knee which did more harm than good and has left her unable to walk long distances, and really unable to walk small ones either without medication and a lot of bed rest following it. One of the days I work (wednesday) is a day my son is at nursery too, and I chose that day purely so it was a day she could just spend all day in bed without worrying about anything, to make sure she had some pain relief in case we wanted to go to the park for a bit on the Thursday when we're all home. Her anxiety stops her working with people, and even prior to the incident that caused us both to suffer with it more extremely, she was already diagnosed with social anxiety and worked on her own as a key holder cleaner, something she can no longer do because of her knee (no manual labour was the doctors orders)

2 times we've been called to ATOS, both times my wife (main claimant) scored the customary 0 points. 2 times we went to appeal, and 2 times we won (one took 13 months, one took 9). When we received our paper work, we score 21 points for the first failure, and 27 for the second one, almost all were related to mental illness, with a few due to the physical issues my wife now had.

last week, we got told ATOS want to see us again on March 1st. My wife is in a state, she does not handle stress well obviously, and she's constantly crying and worried. Not only because of the appointment, but also because of how to deal with it. She's scared of saying certain things because we have a young son (4 Years old in May), and worried that being honest about the amount of help she requires from me, and how much she struggles from time to time might make them think she is unfit as a mother, despite our son being in perfect health. I've tried to calm her on this, but it's not working and she's not booked in to see her therapist again, and is taking tramadol at night (partly for her pain, but also because they knock her out so she can sleep) to get any rest

Our biggest worry is the change in how claims are handled now if you appeal, because we don't know the full information on it, we just know that we cant appeal and get ESA back right away (with doctors notes), and that JSA would be the way to go, but it offers lower rates.

Our main issue here is that due to stress, anxiety, migraines, issues with mobility, etc. When it comes to leaving the house, we rely on transport, be it public or via taxi. Taxi is usually the option as the bus is quite far from us, and my wifes anxiety causes panic attacks on buses (manages ok if the bus is empty though) but I use the bus if I go out on my own, or preferably I walk. But we do spend quite a bit on public transport, other than that though we have no luxuries. Internet/Phone/TV is a low package, which we only have because it's the main way we keep in touch with friends due to issues with going out. We have no mobile phones, except really old PAYG ones with no credit unless absolutely needed, and we have debts from losing our home when we first had to go on ESA, and the house was sold for less than the value we owed on it. So that is being paid off. At the end of each fortnight, after bills, food and everything else we have little more than about £5-£10 to our name which we use if we need to go somewhere unexpected (trips to hospital as my son has asthma too, and has had a few times when he has needed to go due to trouble breathing)

Obviously, if we lose our ESA, and have to go on a lower rate, we're really going to struggle. We already have some bills we're slightly behind on, so have to occasionally shift stuff around to do double payments, but it's really hard. We've gone through debt advice, and how we are now is what's best and what honestly works for us. It's a bit sad that we can't go out nice places (unless a lovely friend or family members takes us and pays for everything), but for the most part we can't really cope with it anyway. So we're ok with that.

Our other worry about being switched over to JSA, is our housing benefit and council tax benefit. Sorting these out before took our local DWP office 3 months. Which lead to us nearly being kicked out of the home, because housing agency didn't think we were really entitled to the benefit, we actually had to take a member of their staff to the job centre to get proof that we were and that the DWP offices were being unreasonably slow to respond about it.

With the issues we've had before, the two previous (incorrect) assessment fails, the money worries and the stress of switching over we're both really panicked at the moment. Obviously, we're hiding it from our son, trying to be nothing but upbeat when he isn't at nursery, but when he goes bed, or goes to nursery, the curtains drop and we both get back to worrying, I've broken out in a rash and my wife as I mentioned is constantly crying.

I'm sorry this has been long winded, not wanted to miss anything out. But we really need some sort of advice on what to do with ATOS, how should we handle an assessment by people who have falsely failed us twice before... what's best for us to do if we do fail? what is the procedure? and how long will be in limbo?

It's all stuff we can't answer ourselves, and stuff that's terrifying us right now... perhaps it's silly, but it really is bothering us.

Hi mafiaduck

Welcome to CAG

When you have your assessments, do you ask for them to be recorded? Because that will help you with any future appeal.

The guys will be along shortly to advise.

Hi mafiaduck

 

Welcome to CAG

 

When you have your assessments, do you ask for them to be recorded? Because that will help you with any future appeal.

 

The guys will be along shortly to advise.

First time we didn't, because we didn't know we were allowed. Second time we did, and were told we should have asked in advance, and that they had nothing to record it with. We offered to record it on my wifes phone, and got told we weren't allowed to do it ourselves as it had to be done by them.

We're going to inform them ahead of the assessment that we want it recorded this time, and still ask to record it ourselves, as to be honest we don't trust them not to edit it in some way.

They will have to find a Doctor/Healthcare Professional who has been trained to use the Recording Equipment, I always thought it was the buttons, 'Rec' and 'Stop'.

First time we didn't, because we didn't know we were allowed. Second time we did, and were told we should have asked in advance, and that they had nothing to record it with. We offered to record it on my wifes phone, and got told we weren't allowed to do it ourselves as it had to be done by them.

 

We're going to inform them ahead of the assessment that we want it recorded this time, and still ask to record it ourselves, as to be honest we don't trust them not to edit it in some way.

:mafiaduck:

Several questions within what you've written. To try and answer them one at a time;

'...... Atos want to see us again on 1 March'

Unless you've simply not mentioned it, conspicuous by its absence is an ESA50 questionnaire. Sometimes Atos/Jobcentreplus don't bother with them for claimants with mental health conditions, but it means a huge chunk of claimant evidence is lost. So if your wife's not completed and returned one, download one from the link below. Have you sent copies of the tribunal decision notices, together with the evidence they were based on, to Atos? If not, do so now (national insurance number on every sheet) and take additional copies to the assessment in case the first lot go walkabout.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/esa-50-limited-capability-for-work-questionnaire

'...... we should have asked in advance' (Audio recorded assessments.)

Current procedure, which is also detailed in the booklet that should be sent with an AL1 appointment letter.

http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2012/12/how-to-request-an-audio-recorded-assessment

In my opinion the best defence against misunderstandings between assessor and claimant. Currently, the four week cut off to wait for an audio recorder remains suspended. But be prepared for Atos to cancel several appointments until they find a machine. Cos of the format used, their recordings can't be edited. And in any case your wife will be handed a copy of the compact disc (or possibly an audio cassette tape) before she leaves the Atos centre. Any attempt to covertly record the assessment on a phone or similar will result in your wife's referral being returned to Jobcentreplus for 'failure to participate'. (Questionable, but yet to be further tested at tribunal.)

CAG has a guide to 'medical' assessments for employment n support.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?287253-esa-medicals

'...... how claims are handled now if you appeal'

Since 28 October 13, there's been two separate stages to the appeal process and it's the first one that's causing most of the problems. First stage is a request, preferably in writing via recorded delivery, to Jobcentreplus for a mandatory reconsideration of the adverse decision. Unfortunately employment n support isn't payable pending reconsideration, so a claimant with no other source of income may need to claim jobseekers. From what you've written, I'd suggest that you may be better placed to cope with jobseekers than your wife. But in case an adverse decision isn't revised at reconsideration she would need to keep herself covered by Med 3 (unfit) notes. Housing benefit/council tax reduction, which depends on low income rather than other benefits, may be disrupted but shouldn't be terminated if you keep your local authority up to date with changed circumstances.

If/when Jobcentreplus refuse to revise, a claimant can appeal directly to the Tribunals Service. Once the appeal's been acknowledged by the Tribunals Service, an appellant can claim assessment rate employment n support pending the outcome of the appeal. (Backdated to the date of disallowance, less any jobseekers already paid.)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/appeals-process-changes-for-dwp-benefits-and-child-maintenance

Sincerely, Margaret.

Hi Mafiaduck . A query . In your post you state ...."I'm currently doing some volunteer work 2 days a week at a charity shop, hopefully working towards being assistant manager". Have you notified the DWP re such voluntary work ?

Thanks for the help so far guys, calling ATOS on Monday to ask for recorded session

Hi Mafiaduck . A query . In your post you state ...."I'm currently doing some volunteer work 2 days a week at a charity shop, hopefully working towards being assistant manager". Have you notified the DWP re such voluntary work ?

Yeah, I notified them. But to them, I don't exist. It's really annoying. My wife for example, if she was able to work (which she did for 3 months before the knee issue caused set backs), would be allowed to work 15.5 hours per week, and still claim full benefit for one year. So she could apply for a number of 10-12 hour jobs in our area. I, however, can not. If I work, we have to sign off without any of the extras that she is entitled to.

If I want an interview at the Job Centre, I have to phone and ask for one. Then wait for a letter to be sent out, requesting that my wife attends an interview with me, then I have to ask questions in her presence. Sometimes through her, if my wife has a particularly bad day and can't make it to an appointment, it has to be cancelled, because they wont see me on my own.

When I told them I was volunteering to get something on my C.V. They asked how many hours, I said no more than 10 a week, and then I was asked why I needed to inform them unless I was coming off benefit, my wife would need to let them know if she did it, but I didn't. It's one of the many things that makes our claim such a pain in the arse now.

If we did have to claim a different benefit, I'd definitely sign on as the main claimant. But due to my own illness, I can't work full time, and to take advantage of the 'full pay for benefits working under 16 hours per week' rule (which I'd need to do for a short while because I couldn't go straight to a minimum of 24 hours per week) we'd need to be signed on at the lower rate (the things we're worried about) for more than 6 months. It gives us a light at the end of the tunnel, which is good, but the tunnel itself is terrifying.

Hi again guys,

our appointment is now being recorded, and it has managed to be sorted out to still take place on Monday (it took forever for them to confirm it, but apparently they the recorded equipment there permanently now due to complaints).

I had a quick question about the ESA50 form. If I print one out, and fill it in, what do I do with it? if one has not been sent out to me, and they're not expecting one, do I still take it with me? or is it to be sent to the DWP? I've filled these in before, but only at the appeal stage, so I'm not sure what the process is for using them during a review.

thanks again!

Hi mafiaduck

They haven't asked you to fill one in, when and if they do, you must fill it in and return it.

It's a good idea to fill one in anyway and take it with you, so you can refer to it during the assessment, it's useful as a reference, if your memory isn't great. Also it might be useful to print off a list of your medicines and side effects of the medicines so you can easily refer to them.

Take the medicines with you.

Hi again guys,

 

our appointment is now being recorded, and it has managed to be sorted out to still take place on Monday (it took forever for them to confirm it, but apparently they the recorded equipment there permanently now due to complaints).

 

I had a quick question about the ESA50 form. If I print one out, and fill it in, what do I do with it? if one has not been sent out to me, and they're not expecting one, do I still take it with me? or is it to be sent to the DWP? I've filled these in before, but only at the appeal stage, so I'm not sure what the process is for using them during a review.

 

thanks again!

Hi mafiaduck

 

They haven't asked you to fill one in, when and if they do, you must fill it in and return it.

 

It's a good idea to fill one in anyway and take it with you, so you can refer to it during the assessment, it's useful as a reference, if your memory isn't great. Also it might be useful to print off a list of your medicines and side effects of the medicines so you can easily refer to them.

Take the medicines with you.

Ah, ok.

With Margaret earlier on saying to print and complete one, I thought I needed to hand it in as part of my wifes interview or something. Using it as a reference tool makes sense, I'll be sure to do that then.

Her medicines were a bone of contention last time, between ATOS and the appeal court. My wife would not take any medicine, she was breast feeding for most of the date in question, and after she finished that she started but had bad reactions to every anti-depressant/anxiety medication she took, so decided to take none and went through therapy instead. Which she preferred.

The appeal court doctor understood this, but ATOS wrote down that no medication had been deemed as required and the issues were ok for my wife to deal with on her own.

She's on a few different meds now, for her knee mainly, and is still with a therapist. But I'm a bit concerned that when it comes to the mental health questions, the lack of medication (despite side effects), would be something they'd score her down on. :\

:mafiaduck:

The normal progression of a work capability assessment is an ESA50 questionnaire (to be returned within four weeks) followed in 80% of cases by a face to face assessment. The other 20% are decided on the paperwork. Atos/Jobcentreplus don't have to send a questionnaire but they usually do. Claimants with mental health issues don't have to return them. But there doesn't seem to be any obvious reason why your wife's not getting the chance to complete one. And it could be a contributory factor to the tribunals cos it's a huge chunk of claimant evidence.

From an official viewpoint, your wife doesn't need to complete an ESA50 or take one to her interview, but I strongly recommend that she does cos it's written evidence of how her knee and mental health affect her ability to perform the prescribed descriptors. And the guidance for assessors is that all paper evidence (ESA50 taken on the day, supportive medical evidence, tribunal decisions) should be read before an assessment.

If your wife's not taking medication cos of side effects be sure to explain why not, both on the ESA50 and verbally. She shouldn't be 'marked down' if it's unreasonable to expect her to take a particular drug.

CAG has a dated, but still very useful guide to completion of an ESA50 at;

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?316210-ESA50-Guide

And there's a guide to the mental health part on Rethink's site;

http://www.rethink.org/home

(Search for Work Capability Assessment Factsheet)

Nothing to stop you and your wife using a second copy of her ESA50 as a crib sheet.

Best wishes, Margaret.

Hi again everyone,

Thanks for all your help. Really feel we are ready for the assessment.

We have hit a snag though. We told ATOS to PLEASE not rearrange the assessment. Days before my wife has any doctors appointment she will panic, and have sleepless nights. If it is rearranged at the last minute she doesn't get free from this, but rather stays highly on edge until the next appointment. If it doesn't happen for months, she slowly calms down, but it makes her quite bad.

No surprise, just as we were putting on our coats on (literally, we were just about to leave) we got a phone call to tell us the appointment on Monday was cancelled. So now my wife's stressed out again, especially since they told us this would not happen and everything was ready for us.

Quick question for you. How long does it normally take for a new appointment to come through? When a new one comes through, would it be worthwhile sending the ESA50 to the DWP, that we completed without it being sent to us, because we've not done it yet as we only got it and completed it on Friday so wouldn't have got it to them before the assessment.

Hi mafia

It's difficult to say what date they will rearrange the appointment for, it might be worth contacting your doctor stating that it's causing stress and anxiety and can he contact ATOS.

You haven't been sent the form, so I would just wait until the assessment to hand it in if you decide to do that.

:mafiaduck:

Absolutely no way of knowing when Atos will send your wife a further appointment. There's the option of phoning every other day or so to try for a cancellation slot, but if you got one your wife would probably have to settle for a non recorded assessment.

Have you sent Atos any paperwork for this assessment? If not I'd send a copy of the ESA50, with copies of medical evidence and tribunal decision notices now, cos there's a slim possibility that strong enough evidence will dispense with the need for a face to face.

Margaret.

Hi,

My wife recently went for an ATOS interview, we were told we'd have a reply within 2 weeks. It's longer than that now, and we've received nothing. She's not fit for work, at all, so we're dreading the reply coming through the door saying "You're perfectly fit to work" which has happened twice before, and twice we've appealed and had a court give her more than 20 points and say ATOS are idiots. But we don't want the stress of doing that again, and know the rules have now changed.

This morning, the dreaded brown envelope came through the door. Only it was not ATOS related.

Instead, it was to tell us about Post Work Programme Support.

She has completed her time on it, and on 23rd of June they shall interview her to see where she goes next. But what does this mean? Is it safe to say she passes the ASOS test? last time she took it, all communication with the Job Centre was halted until her results were in. This seems like her result was a pass, if she now has this interview?

Also, what happens now? Will she lose the extra benefit she currently receives for being in the work group? or does she enter a different work group with a premium top up? Both of us being out of work makes money tight, as you can imagine, so suddenly losing the premium is a real worry.

Our last issue, is that on the 23rd of June, we wont be around. My mother recently had heart failure, her heart is running at 10% and she needs constant care around the home. Unfortunately, her partner is unable to get out of work commitments between the 20 and 30th of June. So we've arranged to go stay with her. It's a long way away from our area, and it's taken a lot of effort to arrange it (we've had to arrange a family member to basically babysit our house, because it's part of my wifes anxiety that our house is not safe, or could have things catch fire and such)

Will the Job Centre stop the benefit because of this? or will they understand if we tell them right now, and explain that any time before then or after then is absolutely fine? I normally wouldn't be too worried about that, but someone who works at a charity shop with me recently lost her benefits because she's gone on a holiday with her mum, and missed a signing on day that was changed without her knowing (she was away when the letter was sent to her)

Thanks for any help, this forum has always been really useful to me. It really helps me and my wife dealing with the otherwise crushing anxiety that we get from these constant worries and the changes to our routines.

:mafiaduck:

This morning's brown envelope doesn't have any implications, negative or positive, for the outcome of your wife's recent reassessment for employment n support allowance. So long as she complies with any work focused interviews/work related activities that are asked of her, payments of employment n support with the work related activity component will continue until there's a new decision as to her capability for work/work related activity.

At the moment, although there's a myriad of different Government schemes for work related activity for claimants of employment n support allowance, there's only one component, currently £28.75 per week. (Work related activity doesn't automatically attract any premiums, which are for other issues, extra money for the most severely disabled, carers or living alone.) Any sanctions for non compliance would be of your wife's personal allowance, currently £72.40 per week.

A not very well known (until it bites) condition of receiving any Local Authority or Work n Pensions benefits is not leaving home without letting them know. People do 'get away' with odd weekends in Britain but there's no point in disappearing for ten days then whinging cos of a missed appointment or letter for one. But it's perfectly permissible for claimants in receipt of employment n support to take holidays that aren't contraindicated by the reasons for the claim. Assertions of agoraphobia/unable to stay at a work station lose credence if you're planning a car/train trip of two hundred plus miles.

Given that this holiday was arranged before your wife received the appointment it's reasonable to offer some alternative dates and ask the Jobcentre to rearrange. First off, I'd phone the contact centre for your Jobcentre, unless you've already got hold of a direct number, and ask for a call back from your wife's adviser. (They're no longer allowed to transfer calls. ) Then confirm the content of the call in writing (via recorded delivery or at least get confirmation of posting) to your Jobcentre and enclose any documentary evidence of your plans. Keep copies of everything in case of subsequent queries from your benefit delivery centre.

Yes, both the criteria for employment n support allowance and the disputes process have changed last year. If the outcome of reassessment when your wife eventually receives it, is 'fit for work', CAG can explain the new mandatory revision and appeals process. Combination of Jobcentreplus using second class post and your ten days away may make the timetable quite tight, so I'd ask the house sitter to redirect any brown envelopes that arrive while you're away.

Best wishes, Margaret.

Thanks Margaret.

I'll be contacting them on Monday. The getting away fro ten days thing is a little awkward to explain to them, because it's technically not a holiday. Whilst my mother lives in north wales, which is admittedly far more like a holiday break than where I live, it's just to care for my mum.

My wifes condition is strange, her agoraphobia comes from changes in a situation where she's not got control or help. For example, she can't leave the house if she is in on her own. If she had to go to a meeting, or a doctors appointment, there's no way she could do it. She's have panic attacks, make her self really ill and just do everything to avoid it or break down and cry.

Now if she could go to a meeting, and I could be there with her, giving her a sense of familiarity. She's generally ok. She still suffers with anxiety and panics about something new. But just having me being there is a great comfort and helps her. That's why going to my mums for the ten days was hard work. My mum needs the help, but I can't go alone because my wife would be house bound and constantly worrying about things she had to do, even so little as getting a pint of milk from the shop. So it was arranged for her to come with me, and for my father to come and live at our house for a week, so we can get our mail daily (he's going to email us scans of it) as another of her worries is what we will miss if we're not home to open the mail.

This is just a teeny-tiny part of her over all condition, and not the part that gets her the ESA claim (that's more to do with Disability, and regular anxiety/depression) but it means taking her with me is really a necessity, but explaining it to the job centre bloody hard. I just hope they understand.

She's not planning on vanishing or anything. She can do it any time up to the 19th, and any time from the 1st of July onwards. Hopefully we'll get someone who understands, the staff at our centre are generally nice. Just hope that holds true on Monday.