Hey everyone,

After some help please. Im hoping someone on here is either is an employment law specialist or can confirm if I am correct or not.

So the problem. I joined this company on the 22nd of October 2012. My hourly rate was £7.21 a hour although they advertised it at £14,000pm (I worked part time 25hrs a week) So was halve, this shouldnt matter due to my pay slip saying £7.21ph, but there is a reason I mentioned it but ill get to that in a bit.

Basically I had a lot of time off during december and beginning of January. So I was overpaid in Januarys pay. This is fine I understand this.

I went back on the 22nd of January and left the company on the 31st, I had 2 1/2 off in this period.

I know I had been overpaid but I still have 43 hours owed in Holiday.

They said to me the way they work it out I was overpaid by 60hrs and they took my holiday to pay this back so I still owe them 17hrs.

I requested my timesheets from the 22nd of october to the 31 of jan so I could add up all the hours I have worked in total.

In total I worked 156.4 hours (I totalled it up to the minute)So I work this out to be 156 x £7.21 = £1124.76

Now my final pay total was £1288.84 meaning I have been overpaid by £164.08.

This is fine I know I have been and I accepted that to them. I then proceeded to tell them that theses calculations did not take into account the 43 hours holiday pay I am owed.

They replied and said, they way they work the pay out, I owe 60 hours and my holiday entitlement was taken to pay this back.

I tried to explain my thinking, I said, I doesnt matter what way you work the pay out, If I worked 156 hours and have 43 hours holiday I should have taken home at end of employment £1434.79 which means I have been underpaid by £145.95.

They insist I am wrong and no matter what I say or the way I try and explain it, they still say I am wrong.

So here I am, Asking if someone can confirm if I am correct or not or give me some advice where to go etc.

Am I correct in thinking, If I worked 156 and have 43 hours holiday for the entire time I worked there, my final pay should represent 199 x £7.21 regardless of the way its worked out.

The hours I added up was sent to me by HR and are the same time sheets payroll use to calculate our pay, so they are correct.

Another thing, My payslip say "salary £625 one side and £7.21 ph on the other side, I forgot to ask about this, But surely, If I worked 100 hours in a month the salary should say £721. I worked Monday to friday with the odd Sunday, So one week I would have a randon day off so it still worked out 100 hours in a month, So they cant say its due to being shifts and some months being 80 hours and others being 120.

Any thoughts etc, Please if I am wrong say so but please try and explain in laymans terms as my previous employers was just saying I am wrong and banging on about they work it out by salary and they are 100% its correct. Endless times I told them to sit and add up every hour I worked but they refused saying it was a waste of time.

If you need any further info please dont hesitate to ask or pm me

Ill stop blabbing now.

Thank you in advance.

EDIT:

Heres is the hours I worked in order from finnish to start. I havent added dates as that will take ages but im sure you get it.

5h2m - 30/1/13

49m

5h4m

2h49m

5h

5h

5h

5h

5h

4h54m

5h1m

4h56m

5h5m

5h6m

5h8m

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

3h50m

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h

4h - 22/10/12

Hello and welcome to CAG.

I hope the forum guys will be along later with advice for you.

My best, HB

I think that you've calculated your holiday allowance incorrectly. Although I don't agree with their figures either.

Assuming you were on the statutory minimum holiday of 5.6 weeks a year and you worked 156 hours 44 minutes.

5.6 weeks holiday / 46.4 working = 12.07 approx. // This is the holiday to work percentage.

12.07 * 156.73 hours working = 18.92 hours holiday you earned // This is the statutory minimum, and less than half what you think you had earned.

Using these figures you worked 156.73 (hours worked) + 18.92 (hours holiday) = 175.65 in total.

Total pay due = 175.65 * £7.21 = £1266.44

So I make it you owe them £22.40. Unless of course they agreed to more than the statutory minimum of holiday, in which case you owe them less (28-32 days holiday) or they owe you (from 33 days holiday per annum).

I think that (if you were entitled to the statutory minimum holiday entitlement) you accrued 38 hours and 44 minutes of leave.

However this depends on your answers to the following questions:

1. Do you have a contract of employment/statement of particulars or any another document covering this employment?

2. Do you have anything in writing from this employer saying that you are required/contracted to work 25 hours a week?

3. Do you have anything saying how much annual leave you are entitled to? If so, what does it say?

4. When does the company's holiday year run from/to (e.g. April-March)?

5. When you had 'a lot of time off' was this due to sickness?

P.S. Was it your decision to leave?

Thank you, Just to clarify. I did not calculate the holiday it was payroll that told me I was due 43 hours holiday and that 43 hours was taken from the 60 hours I owe them.

When I first found out I didnt get paid anything on the first of Feb, I called payroll to ask what had happened and he explained that I owed them 12.5 hours, I had accrued 9.5 hours of holiday and that was used to pay off the outstanding hours, and he said, so you owe us 3 hours.

I replied and said, yes, I am fine with that as I know that correct, however I still have my holiday entitlement from the previous year 22nd October 2012 to 31 December 2012 which was agreed to be carried over due to the company not letting me take it. Payrol replied saying they had no record of this holiday and to speak to HR.

So I called HR to ask what had happened and they to replied saying there was no record of it, none on system nor on my personal file. They said, I cant have as its not company policy to carry unused holiday over. I explined that, It was agreed by my line manager that an exception would be made due to the fact I could not take it because work commit wouldnt allow it.

About 4 days past and I got a call back from HR and said, they had spoke to payroll and said, "yes the 4 days holiday you accrued from last year was taken to pay back the hours you owed, You owed in total 60 hours, now you only owe 17 hours"

As you can imagine I wasnt besdt pleased and the HR lady told me to take it up with payrol, again after a long winded phone call with them and me trying to explain things they just kept telling me that I was wrong and they was right.

I said to them, How can you give me a figure of what I owe and tell me you had no record of my 2012 holiday and magically after me informing you about it, it appears and has been used and I now owe more hours then before.

I also mentioned saying, If I was overpaid in December (which is what this overpayment is about) why did you pay me anything in January? I only worked 25 hours in January, so If I owed 60 ours, why did you pay me anything.

Anyhow, as you can see its gone so complicated. This is why I tried to take it back to basics with them. I said, If I worked in total 156 hours @ 7.21 ph then I should have taken in total x amount, I actually was overpaid by x amount but that did not take into account any holiday I was owed.

So if I had accrued 9.5 hours this year 1-Jan - 30 Jan 2013 and 4 days from last year which would be 20 hours so I can add 29.5 hours to the 156 which with that lower figure still means they owe me money, May only be a tiny bit but still its better then owing them 17 and loosing whatever im truly owed. Plus its the principle of the matter.

So for argument sake if I had earned 28 hours holiday (to be safe) I should have taken home 184x7.21= £1326.64.

from 22oct to 30 jan I should have 67 working day to work the holiday out from as they said even though I was signed off, I still accrued holiday for it.

If by law what would be the minimum holiday entitlement I should have got for 67 working day, I dont know if this matters but we had bank holidays included due to having to work them.

To answer the questions

1. Do you have a contract of employment/statement of particulars or any another document covering this employment?

Yes

2. Do you have anything in writing from this employer saying that you are required/contracted to work 25 hours a week?

yes

3. Do you have anything saying how much annual leave you are entitled to? If so, what does it say?

156 hours (However thats off the top of my head, I need to dig my contract out.

4. When does the company's holiday year run from/to (e.g. April-March)?

1 jan 31dec

5. When you had 'a lot of time off' was this due to sickness?

yes.

Im going to call them again tomorrow and again ask them to confirm how much holiday wa taken from me to pay back the hours I owed, As before I ask 3 times and all 3 times she said 43 hours. She said, yes you owed 60 hours, was took 43 hours holiday meaning you owe 17 hours. Im just going to ask for them to send me how many hours I was owed in writting so if it comes to court there is no denying it.

Thank you in advance for the advice.

Can anyone advise please? I am really anxious to get this problem sorted as they are now asking for the money back! I dont have any to give them plus I honestly feel I owe them nothing and they owe me money!

I stand by my calculations.

From a practicable point of view, I would write a letter to your former employer once last time:

Use the following link to calculate your holiday: https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-holiday-entitlement

Take a print out of the calculation (make sure they know it's the gov.uk site).

Restate the hours you worked (reference the pay slips).

Restate your hourly rate (as per your contract).

Calculate the hours worked plus the holiday earned and multiply it by your hourly rate.

State the difference between that and the amount you received, thus confirming who owes what to whom.

Inform them that given your source of information is a government website, you are confident that their figures are incorrect, and that you won't be reimbursing them any money (other than any difference you calculated) until they have provided you with a satisfactory and complete breakdown of your holiday and pay; or failing that, without going to an employment tribunal (you have 3 months from the day you left to do this).

I would also be mindful of how strongly this is worded if you're expecting your former employer to act as a reference.

It sounds like there are some incompetent (perhaps arrogant) people in pay-roll. I don't think you have anything to gain by speaking to them over the phone, you should keep this in writing. Personally I would write a polite letter thanking the employer for your employment stating that, unfortunately, a mistake has been made in their calculations. You then clearly set out your calculations and say you are happy to provide a cheque for the excess. State that you have spoken to HR and pay-roll over the phone but they have not provided a proper explanation of their position. Therefore, if the company disagrees with your calculation, they should put in writing.

Ok so I have an update.

I called payrol again today. I had to call if I am going to take them to an employment tribunal as I only have until the 28th of this month to do it.

I called again and asked how much holiday I was owed and that was used to pay back hours and they told me it was.

2012 - 21.48 hours

2013 - 21.53 hours

Ok so there is definitely something wrong as I managed to earn more holiday in 1 month then I did for 2 1/2 in 2012. I explained this, but payrol said this is what there records show.

I asked him to confirm this in writing and he agreed, He is also sending confirmation on how overpayment I was paid and how much holiday was taken to pay that back. He is also confirming how much my salary was. He also confirmed that I currently owe them 23.17 hours! Which he will also be adding on the letter.

Apparently I was on a salary, he said they use the £7.21 as a figure to use when working out overtime and deductions.

He said my monthly salary was £781.08 when I asked why it said £625 on my wage slip, He replied saying, It becuase I only worked 20 hours a week, from which he just understood there has been a mistake.

He replied saying" Ow there is a problem, We have you down as doing 20 hours a week, even though you have been doing 25 hours a week the system is not sophisticated enough to pick up that your time sheets say 25"

When I asked him what should I do about this, He said I need to speak to HR.

I

So now you can imagine I am even more confused!

So can someone please help me out here.

We now need to do calculations with 20 hours a week and calculations of 25 hours a week.

So I worked in total 37 days. So need calculations on 37 x 4 hours and 37 x 5hours.

Im not sure how to do it if its salaried as its clearly not £7.21 if my monthly salary is £781.08

Please can someone give me a total figure I should have taken home (without holiday) for both 20 hour week and 25 hour week.

Im so sorry I know I cant write the way it needs to be written but I hope you understand.

My calculations make out that I should have taken home over £1400 in total but that seems to much.

Thank you so much in advance.

By 'salaried' they mean paid monthly.

So £7.21 per hour = £781.08 per month because your contract says 25 hours a week.

£7.21 X 25 X 52 / 12 = £781.08

I must say that they are making a right pig's ear of this.

I can't see why you need to call HR.

Is there some reason why HR won't speak to payroll?

Why can't he just ring HR himself to confirm that your contract says 25 hours?

They must be using a very unsophisticated system indeed if they can't add 5 hours on.

What are they doing? Counting with their fingers and toes?

By 'salaried' they mean paid monthly.

So £7.21 per hour = £781.08 per month because your contract says 25 hours a week.

£7.21 X 25 X 52 / 12 = £781.08

I believe so, He said we / your yearly salary by 12 and that gives us the monthly salary. We just use the 7.21 as a base figure.

So with the times I worked in my first post, How much should have I taken home in total if they had me on the correct 25 hour? Was my calculations correct?

I just want to be 100% before I go ahead and take this to court.

I need them to relook at the holiday though as something clearly wrong,. However, If I have written confirmation from the company stating I have 43 hours and it comes to court, can they back out of it and say there was a problem or will a judge make them honer it?

Apparently them speaking to HR themselves seems to civil. I need to speak to HR to make the mistake known so they can then send confirmation saying I was indeed on a 25 hour contract.

Your original calculation of 156.4 hours = £1127.76 is correct IF they just paid you for every single minute you actually worked.

However, a lot of companies have policies whereby they pay by the completed hour, half hour or quarter hour.

So, if it isn't mentioned in your contract you need to find out the policy of this employer.

Another thing to consider is that, because you were contracted for 25 hours a week, your holiday entitlement is accrued as if you worked 25 hours every week regardless of whether you were actually off sick or on holiday during any of the relevant period.

(You don't work out your holiday pay entitlement based only on the hours that you were present at work.)

So based on the period you worked there your statutory minimum holiday entitlement is 38 hours and 44 minutes (£279ish).

If your contract entitles to more than the minimum (you said earlier that you thought it could be 156/year) it will be more.

I understand what you mean by paying you to the minute but from what he told me today is. We are salaried meaning not paid by hours worked meaning, as long as I logged in a 3pm logged out for my 15 min break at 5:45pm and log back in at 6pm and then logged back out at 8pm I should get my daily rate.

I did ask why do they require time sheets and he said its kept for records for people who do overtime or undertime, I assume logging in way after 3pm.

However again, I remember one of the managers saying if we have to stay behind to finish a phone call off, we will only get paid if the call goes past 8:15.

All my times are like a minute or 2 before 8pm, I always hit log out when the phone itself said 8pm as the manager told me this was the time to go off, clearly it was a few minutes wrong but I dont feel I should loose 15 minutes everytime because I hit log out 1 or 2 minutes before 8pm.

It also seems there are some very conflicting information. The managers was telling us we work by hours but payroll saying its salaried 14k a year for full time. So I assume my salary was 9372.96 a year.

Another thing, Its clearly not looked at, If I signed out at 7:45 surly they would have flagged that as early sign out but they obviosuly didnt as they have been paying me for 4 hours all the time.

So for argument sake, With the hours in my first post and going by the 15 minute rule how much should I have been paid without holiday and including holiday?

I really appreciate the help as when I call and try and sort it with them, they either tell me im wrong or simply go quite to say " What do you want me to do about it" Todays phone call proves that. He could have simply seen, If I have been getting paid 4 hours a day I have been underpaid by 37 hours if I worked 37 days at an avarage of 5 hours a day.

I'll have a go, but first can you tell me whether your 15 minute breaks were paid or unpaid?

If you were never told or your contract doesn't say, it's likely that they were unpaid when you consider that you had to clock out for them.

Hi thank you.

Sorry, I didnt have to clock out, I just had to put my phone into break, On my time sheets they all say 5 hours, If I wasnt paid they would all say 4:45. Slightly remember them saying, the 15 min breaks are paid but if you worked full time the 30 min lunch breaks wasnt and you had to sign off your phone.

I just gone through all my time sheets again and I added the hours up wrong, Ita 100% 166 hours but we will say 160 just incase they take away the 15 mins because I logged out 1 or 2 mins early. Im sure 6 hours would be sufficient to cover them.

So its definitely £7.21 no matter what way its looked at?

So I should have been paid 160+43hours holiday so 203 x £7.21 = £1463.63.

Once again, thank you for your assistance I know I can keep going on just worried im going to loose the chance to get it sorted.

Yes it's definitely £7.21.

It's written on your payslips.

It would make no sense to put £7.21 on your payslips because it was the overtime rate and fail to write in your normal rate at all.

They've confirmed that it's your pay rate by saying that the £625 was on the payslips when they thought that your contracted hours were 20 because that would be the correct monthly pay for someone working 20 hours @ £7.21.

If you can prove that you worked 160 hours you should have been paid £1153.60 + whatever is due to you for untaken accrued holidays.

So a minimum total of £1432.90.

More if you can prove a higher than minimum holiday entitlement.

Do make sure to keep everything in writing from now on.

Send them a breakdown and explanation of what you are due.

Make it as detailed as possible.

Include everything; every day/hour you worked, every payment you received, your pay rate, your contracted hours, your contracted annual holiday entitlement, your accrued entitlement etc.

Write that you have tried to resolve this in several phone calls to HR and payroll without success.

Write that you expect to receive the balance of £? within 7 days of receipt of your letter.

Keep a copy for yourself and send one each to payroll and to HR by recorded delivery.

Check on track and trace and print off copies of the receipts.

Don't worry too much about the timescales for an employment tribunal claim.

You've got a couple of weeks and it's a very simple claim.

It shouldn't take more than an hour or so to do online and we can talk you through it or tell you what to write if necessary.

P.s. If you can find out what your contract says about your holiday entitlement, let me know and I can calculate exactly what you're due.

Sorry for late reply, I have been working a lot of hours the past couple of days so not had time to come on.

I have looked for my contract but it seems my partner has thrown it away. It was in a bag with all my other paper work with the company. She had a clean out and it seems she cleaned that out.

I am receiving a letter from payrol stating that I accrued 43 hours holiday, I assume that would be sufficient? Am I correct in thinking that I should have received more as I did 25 hours not 20? Or am I thinking about it incorrectly?

I dont know what to do without the contract? Im happy with there estimate of 43 hours but if someone can confirm it should be more because I worked 25 not 20 then I will pursue the extra holiday if not then ill leave it at what it is.

I have the time sheets they use so they cant deny that. I am going to make copies and send them in the totals of each page for them to add it together etc.

Thank you for all your help so far

Hello again,

So I just called up (I know you said to do it by lettter) But payrol said I needed to get HR to confirm to them that I was on a 25 hour contract not a 20 hour, So I thought I would do that by phone to save a bit of time.

To my surprised the HR lady was waiting for my call and said there has been a cheque sent today for £142.77! So with that my total pay comes to £1431.61!

The HR lady apologised and said well done for persevering!! I was like, It because I knew I was correct all along, I thanked her for her help as she was the only one who went out her way to get me the information I needed to get it sorted but I said to her I would Like to make a formal complaint to head office for the way I was treated. as I was treated me like a retard (Sorry for the wording but thats how I felt when I spoke to them) The attitude that some of them gave me was uncalled for even if I was incorrect.

Do you think its worth me doing? My main point for doing it, is I cant begin to imagine how many staff have lost money through there incompetence. I know of one other girl who left shortly after me who had been miss paid and she said she cant be bothered to argue with them. She was also on a 25 hour contract and I was informed that all people on a 25 hour contract was mistakenly put on a 20 hour, So chances are she was not only miss paid for her so called 20 hours but she will be owed another 60 hours for her entire employment as she never had a day off!

So yea do you think I should lead the way to try and get this incompetence noticed by the big bosses? Ow and by the way, this is a multinational company! They work on behave on vodafone, sky, eon and many other companies and thats just in this country!

Thank you for all your help without your vote of confidence, I dont think I would have had the energy to carry on arguing over it!

Yes make a complaint as long as you don't need a reference from them in the future, but don't get too hung up on it though

Yes make a complaint as long as you don't need a reference from them in the future, but don't get too hung up on it though

I dont need a reference from them as I already have a job! However I thought that a company could not give you a bad reference. I thought they could refuse but not give a bad one.

Its funny, I make a complaint about being treated badly but yet that would mean me getting even more stick for there mistake!

I incurred a few bank charges when I didnt get paid when I expected it and im wondering if I could claim them charges back from the company as it was there fault! Its only £70 but if I can I will. I think I deserve some compo, not for wait of my pay but for the way they treated me.

the reference thing is an urban myth. They can say whatever they like as long as it is factual.

the reference thing is an urban myth. They can say whatever they like as long as it is factual.

Ow right, Fair enough, Thats good info to know. Its funny how myths get around more then the actual truth lol.

Do you think I could claim back the bank charges from them? Or get some compo for the stress and upset they caused me during this whole episode?

I wouldnt have minded if they listened to me and investigated from the begeninng but for it to take me nearly 3 months and endless phone called, Being called a lair ( Not actual words but as good as) Being spoken to like a child and blatantly not listened to.

Normally I let theses things go and do get to hung up over it, But they really got to me. If you could listen to the calls you would understand. I have never felt so stressed and belittled in my life.

Another thing, Every single call into the company is recorded and kept on a server due to it being a call centre so if they ask for proof all they have to do is listen into the phone calls.

I know I may sound like im trying to be one of them claim for anything type of people, But I really aint. A dentist did 2 root canels on 2 good teeth by misten while I was asleep and I didnt sue as I understand mistaks happen and it wasnt worth ruining his carer over it. Just wanted to emphasize how I feel!

Please give me your honest opinion, If I am being petty please say so.

Thank you

Ow right, Fair enough, Thats good info to know. Its funny how myths get around more then the actual truth lol.

 

Do you think I could claim back the bank charges from them? Or get some compo for the stress and upset they caused me during this whole episode?

 

I wouldnt have minded if they listened to me and investigated from the begeninng but for it to take me nearly 3 months and endless phone called, Being called a lair ( Not actual words but as good as) Being spoken to like a child and blatantly not listened to.

 

Normally I let theses things go and do get to hung up over it, But they really got to me. If you could listen to the calls you would understand. I have never felt so stressed and belittled in my life.

 

Another thing, Every single call into the company is recorded and kept on a server due to it being a call centre so if they ask for proof all they have to do is listen into the phone calls.

 

I know I may sound like im trying to be one of them claim for anything type of people, But I really aint. A dentist did 2 root canels on 2 good teeth by misten while I was asleep and I didnt sue as I understand mistaks happen and it wasnt worth ruining his carer over it. Just wanted to emphasize how I feel!

 

Please give me your honest opinion, If I am being petty please say so.

 

Thank you

Hello there.

I don't quite understand what you're asking, but the guys might be along with advice.

The dentist thing, are you asking for advice or citing that as an example that you're not easily upset please? If you have any other questions about dentistry, the NHS forum would be the right place to start.

My best, HB

I was citing im not easily upset. I was using it to show how upset this whole episode made me.