We bought a van off a friend about 6 months ago for £1000, we gave him £700 when we got it & £250 a couple of months ago, so still owe him £50. In the meantime my husband has been working with him & they both got their tools stolen, tools weren't insured, so had to buy new, didn't have the money at the time, so a local merchant said we could pay them monthly, we've paid £500 off a £1600 bil so far, but the merchant has now put them on our friends account, as we don't have one with them.

The friend has been baggering us for the money daily, so we've put our car up for sale, so we can pay him. We went away over the weekend & left the van with tools in, in a mutual friends locked yard, went for it this morning & it had gone, called the police, then found out the 1st friend had taken it & its in him lockup on the same yard (we didn't know he had one!).

The police have spoken to the friend & they are saying its a civil matter. Spoke to the so called friend & he said he's keeping it all till we've paid him & he's says we also owe him £1500 for the van & £2500 off a job they did together.

The van was only £1000, so only owe £50, put neither of us has proof as nothing written down & paid cash, we have got proof we paid the £500 off the tools. The van is registered in our name & we insure it. Please help, we are desperate.

Thanks in advance

IMHO, any monies owing might well be a civil matter. The fact is that the "friend" has taken your van and contents without your permission that is theft.

If he wants his money back outside any arrangement you might have had with him. He can issue a claim in the county court.

I dont think he has the right to take the van.

The police said its not theft, because he said he's only holding it until the money is paid, they won't do anything about it, just said speak to a solicitor. Thing is we can't worj without the van & tools, so can't earn money to pay him back. Thanks for replying

I'm not clued up on this subject... But.

You say, you're the registered keeper of the van and the insurance is in your name?

Police say it's not theft, cos the friend Is only holding it?

What a load of tosh!!

I'd go back to the police and speak to somebody with stripes. They're quick to fob off with 'this is a civil matter'

Hi

Just a question whos name is the vans document registered under i.e. V5 and Insurance?

Forget question re-read post question already answered SOZ.

So in that Case as you are the registered owner of that vehicle I fully agree that the POLICE being there lazy self are completey incorrect as this is now THEFT plain and simple.

The dispute over the money yes that is a Civil Matter and a completely seperate issue.

IMO I would go to the Police Station and report the van as stolen and get a crime reference number and if they pull its a civil matter be polite and ask to speak to the Senior Officer in charge as you now wish to complain as this is not a Civil Matter as you are the Registered Keeper of that vehicle and also have insurance in your name for that vehicle.

You have neither authorised or given your friend permission verbally or written to take and keep that vehicle therefore as the Registered Keeper of that vehicle it has been taken without my consent while away on (business/holiday) from your lockup where the vehicle was stored for security purpose while you were away which is also tresspassing.

NOTE: Also as the friend took the van I assume by driving said van even a small distance do they have insurance to drive that van and if not then also driving without insurance.

V5 & Insurance is in our name (my husbands)

I am fairly sure there is no right of lien over tools.

Hi

Also taking a vehicle without consent is committed when the perpetrator takes a vehicle for their own use without the vehicle owner’s permission. This offence can also apply when another person knows that a vehicle has been taken without consent and then travels in or drives the vehicle. Taking a vehicle without consent can lead to a maximum prison sentence of six months and/or a maximum fine of £5,000. Judges can also use their own discretion in deciding to impose a driving disqualification.

The log book and insurance has no bearing. As the van is not fully paid for, by admission, they cannot be the legal owner. The tool issue is different but not that much.

Some "friend" though.

Think you're going to have to sort this out by negotiation with the friend I would not like to have. Perhaps you could offer something as surety, like the car you are suggesting selling. I reckon that by going down the legal route which is time consuming and expensive he will retaliate with same as is his right.

I'm confused now, most ppl are saying its theft, then one other saying it's not! The police don't know we still owe £50 on it & that would be our word against his surely. It's all very confusing, we really don't know what to do for the best

Tis quite simple wend.........if you havent paid for something in full then you are not the legal owner. There are though procedures that have to be gone through for the creditor to recover monies owed. Obviously this is in the financial world and regulated but as regards your purchase I believe it applies.

Some of the more legally gened up bods would know more than I do.

But he doesnt have anything in writing for anything, so he's not a creditor, therefore surely we are the legal owners & he's taken it without permission so its theft surely. Say my husband fits windows & doesn't get paid, then if he removed them he would get done?

Hi

I do have to disagree on this as where is the written agreement stating this agreement and payment terms.

Also the are the Registered keeper of that vehicle not the friend and are legally by law have to have insurance for that vehicle and comply with the revevant legislation i.e MOTs.

The Money issue as I said is a seperate matter and a civil matter.

The friend Took that Vehicle WithOut Consent (TWOC) from the "Registered Keeper" of that vehicle. (but moved that vehicle into there own lockup and if they drove that vehicle would require insurance cover for that vehicle and if no isurance they committed another offence of driving without insurance but we have no idea how they moved that vehicle into the lockup so this is assuming that they drove it only)

clear case of TWOC surely?

dx

This is the line the police take when a PPC/Clamping?towing outfit removes a car off private land... "sorry sir, it's a civil matter". We hear it all the time whether the vehicle is paid for or not. Seems a complicated one though but as far as I know, you cannot legally hold property against a debt without a CCJ/warrant. But how you 'educate' the police, I don't know. I would advise your insurers though.

hi been to police station to speak to senior officer..explained what is happening and he said as he is claiming ownership that there is money still oweing even though he has no proof he is commiting no crime in witholding my van and tools .....i then asked so if i sell my veichle and keep a spare key and then say u owe me money with no proof i can the take the car back without your consent and hold it to ransom.... so i have the keys and v5.. what do i do about the insurance and tax and my tools ......cnt work cant pay anything cnt get a solicitor without money helppppppp please

and apparently anybody can go and take something of someone and say they owe them money and there is nothing you can do about it other than take them to smal claims court .so i cant get my tools back to work to pay my bills or morgage or solicitor oor finish my jobs so good old british law ...

By the way thats my husband in the last 2 replies. Can anyone help further plz? Thank you

Apparently because he is claiming ownership of the vehicle saying there is money outstanding even though he has no proof of that only my word against his and that he hadnt drove it for is own personal use its in his lock up he is perfectly within his rights to do so ....he dnt drive it or sell it but can take it apart and sell it and hold me to ransom for whatever he sees fit according to the police he has committed no crime and is now a civil matter..so i am now paying insurance on a vehicle i don't have and have also just taxed it and lots of valuable tools in the van but cannot do anything about it other than take him small claims court in the been time i can't work and pay my bills or feed my kids and dnt get legal aid or consultation free so completely stuck

Firstly if in England, it's not theft. There theft is defined by s6 of the Theft Act 1968 as "Taking with the intention of permanently depriving...". If in Scotland Theft is common law, so there is a chance it could be theft - although realistically its very unlikely.

Its never going to be an easy one to resolve, as ultimately a third party will need to decide a "He said/They said" issue, and so its based on the credibility of who says what on the day.

As for the police - you have the ownership document and insurance. For the police to claim £50 being due makes it acceptable to be taken away and locked up is pathetic without even bothering to speak to the other party to hear their claim. Furthermore, as there is no agreement in place, to tie the £50 to vehicle, its a bit like me driving off in a bin lorry the next time I overpay my council tax.

Although to be fair to the police, they do have to spend a vast amount of time in police stations, and have some very serious tea to drink.

Realistically there is no definite solution here. So its going to be one to deal with a little bit at a time until something logical prevails.

As a first step, I would write recorded delivery to your "friend" asking why he has your vehicle/tools, and ask him to list specifically what he is expecting before returning them to you. This at least gives you something in writing to base matters upon, and so obviously if you disagree with anything he says, you would require to write back correcting what you feel to be wrong. However, I don't see him replying - which goes in your interest.

I would also remove him as a named driver if he is on the policy.

If there is no reply back within two weeks, send a "letter before action" requiring a reply within seven days, as then he looks far less credible for ignoring your requests.

As I suggested above, there is no right solution here, and you are really going to have to pick the best suggestion from what people here offer to you - or one of your own, as you know your "friend" best and have a better idea of how his mind works.

Thank you and he is not on the policy and never has been.

Where do i stand about the insurance policy as i can't afford to pay it as impact not working without a van and tools and also i went bankrupt in January and the vehicle he is holding for paymentis under my estate ...

He is not on the policy. and also i went bankrupt in January and the van went on my bankruptcy. so ican't pay him this imaginary money anyway as i would befavouring him over. other creditors.

Obviously this person isnt really a friend at all. I would say that holding the van to ransom for 50.00 is a bit much but you also say that the tool merchant has added the balance to your friends account, now thats another 1,100 and you do say that the friend has been badgering you for it I think perhaps he has got to the end of his tether in waiting for his money. If you had paid 500 off the tools why hadnt you paid 50.00 to the friend and 450 off the tools? makes sense to clear one debt off for the small amount involved.

I really dont think this does count as theft in the true meaning of the offence and as such I can see how the police would be reluctant to get into this argument, although sometimes they are willing to have a friendly word with the other party to try and resolve matters.

Yes do as previously suggested and write to him asking what outcome he wants, I assume that the van is of no use to him so he may release that back to you and just keep the tools I dont know a solicitor would have a better idea but you say you cant afford one, have you checked your house insurance policy to see if legal advice is covered or your bank account as some accounts have extras attached to them.

He is holding the van for ransom for more money on the vehicle saying i owe him 1500 for the van went it was a 1000. The van was put on my bankruptcy so can't give him any more money for it as impact still under bankruptcy and as for the tools he is holding tools and property of other clients not just mine and only 1100 belong to him the other3000 worth are mine and he has no prove of the agreement on van or proof of ownership police have just taking his word for it and found it quite amusing and said he may be breaking some law but not a criminal one as it is civil law and anyone can do it but personal i thought you needed a court order or a warrant to remove goods for payment.. as only items bought on hp are not your property until paid for in full unlike any other point of sale were the goods are yours and they must obtain a court order to claim back the value of what its worth as why catalogues can't. come and repo there goods back...

It would seem then that there is a general concurrence that this is not theft. I agree with the approach bang suggests and think that this is the best way of approaching this.

What is fundamentally incorrect in some posts is that the log book can be used as proof of ownership. It's a certificate of registered keeper as it states, not ownership.

I don't suppose there is any chance that your friend is listed as a creditor under the terms of your bankruptcy is there? Something in the posts you have made suggests he might be. Alternatively, did the deals between you go on before or after the bankruptcy as if before I can understand why your friend is taking the action he is.

Somewhat severe admittadly but could be understandable.