Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

£6.99



Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #1
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    Default Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Hi all

    In short, would a respondent risk committing perjury at a tribunal hearing when if they told the truth they would jeopardise their case in such a way that they would lose.

    Basically I want to ask questions at my hearing, which if the managers answer correctly would prove my unfair dismissal case, if they lie they commit perjury which I can prove.

    Hope this makes sence ........


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by kgrayson00 View Post
    Hi all

    In short, would a respondent risk committing perjury at a tribunal hearing when if they told the truth they would jeopardise their case in such a way that they would lose.

    Basically I want to ask questions at my hearing, which if the managers answer correctly would prove my unfair dismissal case, if they lie they commit perjury which I can prove.

    Hope this makes sence ........
    From what I have experienced and seen on this forum, many lies are told at the ET but it is only considered perjury in the most extreme circumstances.

    Employers defend against the facts of the case by bare denials and utter falsehoods but there is a good deal of tolerance for this as they are seen as protecting their company's interests even though they are not telling the truth.

    Action was taken against an employer who bodged up a contract and payslips and he ended up doing about 6 months in gaol but it really has to be that clear cut to attract any sanction or penalty from an ET judge.


    Other CAGGERS may be able to explain it better, but in my view, the ET is not a proper court and does not offer the protection of a proper court against false evidence and perjury. It is formal and costly and there is a judge but it is really just a Tribunal.


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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Browncow View Post
    From what I have experienced and seen on this forum, many lies are told at the ET but it is only considered perjury in the most extreme circumstances.

    Employers defend against the facts of the case by bare denials and utter falsehoods but there is a good deal of tolerance for this as they are seen as protecting their company's interests even though they are not telling the truth.

    Action was taken against an employer who bodged up a contract and payslips and he ended up doing about 6 months in gaol but it really has to be that clear cut to attract any sanction or penalty from an ET judge.


    Other CAGGERS may be able to explain it better, but in my view, the ET is not a proper court and does not offer the protection of a proper court against false evidence and perjury. It is formal and costly and there is a judge but it is really just a Tribunal.
    Browncow, thanks for your post. I assumed that swearing on oath and making statements of fact and truth would be taken very seriously. That said I was referring more to perjury being made public after the tribunal. I understand the ET are packed with media representatives, what is the best way to approach these to get them interested in your case?

    Thanks


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by kgrayson00 View Post
    Browncow, thanks for your post. I assumed that swearing on oath and making statements of fact and truth would be taken very seriously. That said I was referring more to perjury being made public after the tribunal. I understand the ET are packed with media representatives, what is the best way to approach these to get them interested in your case?

    Thanks
    I think that kind of publicity is pretty rare, unless of course there is a bit of a story in it. The hearings are public so anyone can attend. If you really want press coverage, I think the best way is to approach your local rag, for example Newsshopper, and suggest it.

    Depending on the content, your story might be picked up by a national paper and even if it isn't , local rags have a substantial circulation as they are often free or at least cheap.


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    professional1964 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    From what I have read elsewhere it isn't a good idea to get media involved.


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    No media people at my ET, certainly no one taking notes. My employer answered several of the judge's questions with a lie and I was not allowed to come back to that (represented myself). The judgement was not decided on the day but when I received the ruling 3 weeks later I felt it was a Pyrrhic victory because I'd seen and heard her lying under oath about a factual matter. Not a lot of comfort, but I knew she'd lied, and she knew she'd lied and several other people in the room knew it too.


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by Caducea View Post
    No media people at my ET, certainly no one taking notes. My employer answered several of the judge's questions with a lie and I was not allowed to come back to that (represented myself). The judgement was not decided on the day but when I received the ruling 3 weeks later I felt it was a Pyrrhic victory because I'd seen and heard her lying under oath about a factual matter. Not a lot of comfort, but I knew she'd lied, and she knew she'd lied and several other people in the room knew it too.
    Yes I agree. Although they lied rather well, they know that I know that they know that are liars. I am sure that the judge knew that they were lying too as he would have had about 30 years experience of porkies but it did not seem to matter all that much. Appaling nonetheless.

    I take it that you won but I understand what you mean about the Pyrrhic victory. I could not have faced representing myself and really admire you for doing that.


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    I just looked up Pyrrhic victory. Was it really too great a cost even if you won?


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    No, my mistake ~ not really Pyrrhic ~ I lost my case, even tho' it seemed to be going my way towards the end. What I meant was that even tho' I lost, I felt I'd won because I looked into her eyes while she was giving evidence and knew she was lying on oath. So sorry folks, got the expression wrong, but hope you all understand what I mean.


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Oh its a shame you didn't win - especially as they were lying, but like you say that person has lied under oath so she obviously has no conscience. I have lost faith in Employment Tribunal and I haven't even hard my pre hearing review yet!


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Hi mate,

    sorry to hear of your loss, is there scope for review/ appeal of the decision?

    regards


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by professional1964 View Post
    Oh its a shame you didn't win - especially as they were lying, but like you say that person has lied under oath so she obviously has no conscience. I have lost faith in Employment Tribunal and I haven't even hard my pre hearing review yet!
    Never say die Professional the odds are 50/50 and it all depends on legal points and definitions (ave you heard of the Johnson area, for example?). Also a PHR can work in your favour as one side will probably have to concede an area of dispute and if your case is strong enough it could lead to an offer of settlement before full hearing.


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by Browncow View Post
    Never say die Professional the odds are 50/50 and it all depends on legal points and definitions (ave you heard of the Johnson area, for example?). Also a PHR can work in your favour as one side will probably have to concede an area of dispute and if your case is strong enough it could lead to an offer of settlement before full hearing.
    Thank you for your words of encouragement Browncow. Just out of interest why are you called Browncow?


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by professional1964 View Post
    Thank you for your words of encouragement Browncow. Just out of interest why are you called Browncow?
    How now? I had the picture from a Christmas Nativity I made with the kids.


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Oh I just wondered. Take it you are a woman same as me then if you were making things with the kids LOL When are you expecting the decision on your case? When I went to watch an ET they gave the judgement there and then at the end - is that unusual? I only went to watch one (3 days)


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by professional1964 View Post
    Oh I just wondered. Take it you are a woman same as me then if you were making things with the kids LOL When are you expecting the decision on your case? When I went to watch an ET they gave the judgement there and then at the end - is that unusual? I only went to watch one (3 days)
    I think it depends on the complexity of the legal aspects of the case. The last day of my case was left for the judges to deliberate and they flagged that they would probably need a further day. This means that they will have to find another day to get together and as there are 3 of them, my lawyer said that he felt it would take about 4 weeks.

    I am not finding it so bad because the thing to face is that all the court stuff is superficial and has little bearing on real life. Win or lose the problems remain the same and adjustments have to be made.

    ET decisions remain more of a secret than I realised. Although they are a matter of record, there is a charge of 10 for the written judgement so it must be easy for employers to "spin" even if they lose.


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    :\ That's quite a long time to wait and in the meantime you having to see them at work. I don't suppose they talk to you about it at work. It must be extremely difficult for you. I signed on with an temp agency and had problems getting them to give the agency a reference, which I think left a bad taste as I have just seen an ideal job for me on totaljobs and it is advertised by the agency I signed on with. I called them and asked them why I hadn't been told about the post or put forward for it as I have the relevant investment banking experience (10 years) albeit about 15 years ago. She said they wanted someone with more recent investment banking experience, but it is only a temp role! I may be getting paranoid but I feel as if my ex employers are thwarting my attempts at getting a job so I think you were wise to keep your job as it is hellish trying to get employment after an ET claim!


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by professional1964 View Post
    :\ That's quite a long time to wait and in the meantime you having to see them at work. I don't suppose they talk to you about it at work. It must be extremely difficult for you. I signed on with an temp agency and had problems getting them to give the agency a reference, which I think left a bad taste as I have just seen an ideal job for me on totaljobs and it is advertised by the agency I signed on with. I called them and asked them why I hadn't been told about the post or put forward for it as I have the relevant investment banking experience (10 years) albeit about 15 years ago. She said they wanted someone with more recent investment banking experience, but it is only a temp role! I may be getting paranoid but I feel as if my ex employers are thwarting my attempts at getting a job so I think you were wise to keep your job as it is hellish trying to get employment after an ET claim!
    They really do not bother me at all now Professional. It is over and I made my very expensive point.

    I never intend to get another job after this one and I want to quit for good around Christmas or before, if it gets nasty again.

    No more workin' for de man or de wooman for that matter


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by Browncow View Post
    Never say die Professional the odds are 50/50 and it all depends on legal points and definitions (ave you heard of the Johnson area, for example?). Also a PHR can work in your favour as one side will probably have to concede an area of dispute and if your case is strong enough it could lead to an offer of settlement before full hearing.
    Dear Browncow,

    glad that your hearing is over, how do you feel it went? I'm glad you seem so positive about it. I am deliberating on my appeal, as I have my written decision and it did not go in my favour at all. Very disappointed. Please are you able to offer any advice with regards to appeal?

    Also can you elaborate on the Johnson exclusion and what PHR stands for? I have looked Johnson up on google, but dont really understand the concept.

    All the best

    BB


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    Default Re: Employment Tribunals & Perjury

    Quote Originally Posted by billybobyeeharrboy View Post
    Dear Browncow,

    glad that your hearing is over, how do you feel it went? I'm glad you seem so positive about it. I am deliberating on my appeal, as I have my written decision and it did not go in my favour at all. Very disappointed. Please are you able to offer any advice with regards to appeal?

    Also can you elaborate on the Johnson exclusion and what PHR stands for? I have looked Johnson up on google, but dont really understand the concept.

    All the best

    BB
    I have no experience of ET appeals Billybob. There are some lawyers on the forum who might help with that.

    A PHR is a Pre Hearing Review and it is a sort of mini-hearing before the main hearing, Its purpose is to sort out major areas of contention in the case. For example, if the employer disputes disability, there could be a PHR to sort that issue out and, if the Claimant loses that argument, there could be no point in progressing to a full hearing.

    The PHR is not used all that often as it is not considered the most efficient use of Tribunal time. Major disputes can be argued at the main hearing so a PHR is often not necessary.

    The Johnson area relates to unfair and constructive dismissal. It refers to an actual case and it refers to loss of income before and after dismissal. I do not really understand it so my explanation may not be correct but here goes.

    If, for example, a worker had run out of sick pay and was dismissed and claimed unfair dismissal they could claim loss of earnings up to the day they got the boot as well as future loss of earnings as a result of getting the boot.

    However, if the same worker was not sacked but because they had run out of sick leave, resigned and claimed constructive dismissal they can only claim for loss of future earnings and cannot claim for loss of income prior to their resignation.



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