Hi,

I'm in a real quandary here. We, unfortunately, had to dismiss an employee earlier this month. I'll give a bit of background, so the whole story is out, and we can be judged from there. We manage a pub which we took over Jan 2011. We kept all employees on, but made it clear that, as it was a change of ownership, it was totally new and a trial period. We let 1 employee go, for being late ( literally every sihft, despite warnings repeatedly and faiing completely to turn up for 2 shifts with no contact then breezing in 3 days later with no explanation....we still gave her pay/hol pay to date and paid her a week in hand in lieu of notice....trying to be reasonable to her).

The other 3 we kept on. The cleaner was given notice 4 months later, and worked and was paid that, and hols, despite failing to do as asked, repeatedly. Her heart was there but she was that ingrained with basically doing not a lot that we were paying her to drink coffee to 2 hrs a day. (she was a fixture if you like at the pub she had been there that long).

We then did the cleaning ourselves (twice as fast and in half the time lol, but she had been given more than the required notice and despite her failings, it seemed fair to us as it allowed her time to find an alternative without dashing her down).

Now, we had 2 bar staff, both of whom passed the trial period. Both got complacent, and informal words were had ( basically, they at quiet periods sat and read or played on phones etc rather than simple tasks like unloading glasses that had been washed, part of job description).

No problems for ages, then 1 bar staff got drunk on the bar one night.....whilst serving. This would've been about last sept. Again, words were had and that was that. Happened again 2wks later. Turned out the guy had home probs, and he ended up homeless the day after ( chucked out). We actually put him up, on the proviso that he do an odd hour here or there unpaid. All was fine, his little lad stayed with him at weekends, and he did around 6 hours per week unpaid, in return for bed, board, etc etc.

About a week before Xmas, he moved in full time with his new girlfriend, and all was well until about the 2nd week in January when we caught him drunk on the bar again. Again, words were had, an informal warning was given. The next weekend, he hit a customer who had "offered him out" for a fight. This was a weekend night, our employee was in a bad mood anyway (girlfriend rows), the customer was spoiling to be fair. Having said that, the employee came out from the bar to hit the customer, with no warning. he didnt press the panic button that we had installed (which wouldve got us in situ in literally 20 seconds), from witnesses he also made no attempt to defuse and himself admitted afterwards that he "saw red", and had carried on serving the guy in the 20 minutes this developed. We had a meeting after, our employee admitted that there had been a grudge for years. We pointed out that we were 20 seconds away (upstairs, and had installed a button for employees to press and we also monitor cctv).

We employ staff on fri/sat night in order to be able to watch cctv and moitor stuff arising ( sometimes easier to see stuff on multiple cameras and deal with quick than to put an extra burden on staff to serve/watch/diffuse). We circulate every 30 mins also.

Anyway, we bought both bar staff in for a meeting, poiunted out that we were there, if something was brewing, just hit the button. We also told both, again, that getting drunk behind the bar was not an option. The employee concerned accepted another warning, both for drink and the hitting of another. The staff meeting took place in our place, not the pub, a few minor things were brought up, there was lots of laughter, and the team seemed to gel again, it's always been a friendly atmosphere, more like mates than "a job".

(and no, this isn't gonna end how you think!!!)

All was, fairly, well until earlier this month.

Saturday night. It's busy, so I am on the bar with said staff member, it's about 10.0pm. He'd had a pint, told me, showed me the receipt from the person who bought it ( as per practice). We were short on pound coins and our machines were not accepting notes. I had been to the local shops, none had spare. By 10.15pm we were desperate and had been using 50ps. I asked bar member to go to the next door pub to ask for £1 coins. Around 11.20pm he returns. Obvious he has had a drink, but the pub is packed, so he get's to doors shut at 12midnight. I have a quiet word with him, he denies drinking. I resolve it's no use reasoning with him now, tomorrow's the time. His mate of 20 yrs is there, sober. Doors shut, so I start cleaning the toilets. I come back, he's finished work, he pours and pays for shots for him and his mate and 2 other regulars.

As I am mopping the bar, I am aware of a commotion. He has headbutted his mate at the back door. 6 times. I still do not know why. In the commotion, he pushed an innocent bystander, albeit a friend, down the steps. She ends up in hosp[ital with a cracked open head and cincussion. Long story short, he went crazy, at the ambulance, us, mates, everyone.

It turns out that when he went to get change, he sunk 5 jaegerbombs (pints with a jaeger shot). I don't pay him to drink. He also admitted to sinking several shots on the bar ( ie on duty), against our express instructions.

OK, here is the odd bit. He was sacked for gross misconduct, what can he claim?

I say that cos he HAS ADMITTED AND GOT HELP.

He has gone and got help for both his anger and his drinking. He can quit drinking for a bit ( and went on a pub crawl with big drinkers to prove to himself and drank OJ). It will not last, but I do not want to see him down and out, I want to help.

I cannot employ him, but we had to sack him for gross misconduct which precludes him from benefits, which is gonna be a hard circle for him. Cos he is sacked, he cant get benefits, etc etc.

He's a good guy, he just needs help, which he has sought and is getting. Does he qualify for something other than job seekers? does the fact he is seeking help qualify him for somethibng else?

Apologies for the long post, just trying to give background so anyone who can advise can do so knowing circumstances.

I am hoping he can claim ESA or similar now he has admitted anger management issues ( not sure if he has told GP about alcohol).

Thanks in advance and sorry for long post.

p.s. We've also told him once tyreated to come talk to us, I just want to make sure he is able to eat at present, and from the "guff" they have given him, he is entitled to NOTHING for several weeks from benefits, as he has "willingly" put himself out of a job. yes and no. Yes he had warnings, and accepts that, which ended his job. But, I know he has admitted anger problems at least ( he knows he has an alocohol problem iei when he has it his anger intenitifies....)

Please, he is trying to help himself, it's a start. How can I also help him? He's a cracking employee just needs help.

He would be eligible for housing benefit if he has no savings or assets to help towards any rent. I'm a bit bemused by your 'he's a cracking employee' comment, sounds like a liability to me and someone with an alcohol problem behind a bar isn't ideal; even if he is a nice guy when sober which might be what you meant? I'm sure others with more knowledge will say what other benefits he would be entitled to now that he has been sacked. There are charities that provide food, basics banks they are called often run in churches.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, he gets drunk infrequently but when he does it's a problem cos of his temper. He did drink off duty, out of here, but again, not often something we were not aware of until fairly recently. When he did though, on duty, it's "whoa get out of his way". He can go months, hence we were not aware of a problem. We have tried to be understanding. He was "homeless" when we put him up, he moved in with his girlfriend, who is at her wits' end.

We have employed him for 15 months, and he has (prior to us knowing these problmes) covered for us having a week away. That means he had keys, cash, had to bank etc etc. All was well. All acounted for, no problems, . It is recent it has come to the fore. I am merely trying to help him live i.e. eat.

He is staying at his ex GF for now, cos he has no where else to go, and we are, between us, trying to sort him out. He can't claim HB cos no home....

"I'm a bit bemused by your 'he's a cracking employee' comment, sounds like a liability to me and someone with an alcohol problem behind a bar isn't ideal"

Please be aware, he wasn't a liabilty, to begin. And, no offence, if everyone who did wrong got judged, we'd all be in a bit of a mess. To start, had you read my post, he passed with flying colours, and worked for about a year with no probs. Everyones' circumstances change. Do you wish to know what set him off? Fine. His son stayed with us, and said staff member at weekends, and YES it's not just absent fathers who are the problem, always, sometimes its the other way round ( and yes, I have also had both before you judge). The Mum had a new BF which, bearing in mind meant she neglected her son ( and yes I saw it), and then denied the Dad ( my staff member) access, kind of pushed him over the edge.

I came on here asking advice, and seem to have been judged (wrongly) by 1 person.

Apologies for actually trying to do the correct thing as a "gaffer". Should I just sack folks next time and worry later?

I am just trying to gain an ex employee some help and cash. He has recognised a problem, sought help, has got help, ongoing, and is now being kicked down by the system. I am not trying to kick him when down, merely get him help. He is a DAMN hard working person, I would NOT be advocating him otherwise. I am not sure whether the alcohol is the problem or the temper., for him. One sets the other off, and vice versa. It's regular but not regular enough that we saw it in the 1st 12 months. I know there's other issues, all were well under control, and were confided in me after about 8 months of him working for us. Hence the leeway.

Not asking for judgement, fk knows he has done that himself, merely help on any benefits please?

OK so this person was sacked for Gross Misconduct, Im assuring you went through the proper procedure? You seem a genuine guy but your responsibility is for yourself, family and business. Its a shame that this guy appears to have alcohol problems and anger issues. Its clear to me that a pub is the wrong place for him to be now or in the future.

Alcohol abuse always has an underlying issue, which must be addressed. Im assuming that he probably has depression so he needs to discuss with his doctor. If he has had this condition for 6 months he would be entitled to apply for Disability Living Allowance. Also ESA may be a better benefit for him rather than JSA. Although he was sacked, due to his alcohol issues a decision maker at the DWP may be mind fill not to sanction him for the 13 weeks.

This person needs help and support and really should go and get it. You have done your duty and best to let him move on.

Good luck

Look, I know you want to help this man, but you can't. Only he can help himself. Indeed, as hard as it is to say, the fact that you are trying to help him may mean that he does less to help himself. Why do I say this? It comes down to the fact that in the end, his problems are his responsibility, but, if you - or anyone else - tries to take on that responsibility for him, then he will almost certainly feel that he doesn't have to address his problems. This is nothing personal against you - many, many people have tried to help people with alcohol and anger problems and have, in the end, been burnt by it. It just can't be done. He has to do it.

The fact is, as well, that most people with these problems do little or nothing about them until they hit bottom. Until then, they keep thinking that something will turn them around or that they will get lucky and everything will resolve itself. It never does resolve itself, but that doesn't stop them from thinking that it will. Sacking this guy for gross misconduct was the best thing you could have done for him. He needs to know that he can't just go on doing as he likes and somehow get everyone to tolerate it because he has problems.

Another thing. You say one of his girlfriends threw him out and that his problems are linked to depression because of this. You may have this backwards. His problems didn't arise overnight, you know. It is perfectly possible, and entirely likely, that she tossed him out because she grew tired of tolerating his problems with drinking and anger. That is the key: you shouldn't tolerate his problems. You shouldn't help him to sustain his illusion that if only such-and-such were better or if people were a little kinder to him, or whatever, that his problems would go away without him having to make an effort. The sooner he realises this, the sooner he will seriously begin to deal with his problems.

In the end, just walk away from him. Don't give him a helping hand. Don't listen to his sob stories. Don't let him into your pub, even as a customer. Make him take responsibility for his actions. This is the best thing you can do for him.

Got to say I agree with the other posts you really cant do anything to help, you have done all that you can and you must protect your business, the best you can do is give him the names and contact numbers of any local charities, AA,and CAB and he will have to sort himself out. But whatever you do dont let him drink in your pub as although he may start off ok he may kick off and this time it could be against you even though you have tried to help him. i have had a pub of my own and you really do not need a ticking time bomb in there. You have nothing to be ashamed of you have been more than fair not just with this employee but with all of them.

Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) does not have sanctions for being dismissed from a job. It is a sickness benefit and can only be paid if his GP certifies him as unfit for work. If his GP does this, he would be able to claim ESA at an assessment rate of £67.50 per week until April where it rises to £71.00 per week (assuming he is over 25 - for under 25's there is a lower rate) - this will continue until he has an assessment by ATOS who will determine whether he has limited capacity for work. This is supposed to take place within 13 weeks but in reality it rarely does. If he is determined by ATOS to have limited capacity for work, his benefit will increase and he will be placed in the work group where he must undertake work related activity unless he also has limited capacity for this also in which case he'd be placed in the support group and not be expected to partake in activities. If the ATOS assessment determines that he does not have limited capacity for work, his ESA would stop. He would then be looking at appealing or claiming another benefit.

DLA can only be paid if his disability gives rise to care and mobility needs. He will not get this solely on the fact that he has anger issues or alcoholism. There must be care or mobility needs arising from it.

These are the benefits he could apply for if he meets the criteria. If his GP does not believe he is unfit for work (and by that it must be unfit, full stop - not just unfit for bar work) or if he does not have a condition that gives rise to care or mobility needs then JSA is the only benefit he can claim.

It is likely that a sanction would be imposed for JSA. A sanction is where he must still satisfy all of the conditions for JSA but he will not be paid any money. The maximum period that they can impose a sanction for is 26 weeks. I say that it is 'likely' not only because his employment was terminated for gross misconduct but because of the several warnings that he had for similar instances before he was dismissed. Good cause is unlikely to be accepted because of this. It is by no means a certainty that he would be sanctioned but more likely in my experience than not because of the circumstances.

If it's a case of he is fit for work but is just unable to receive payment of JSA because of the misconduct and is looking for another way to claim benefit, our help is extremely limited in respect of benefit advice and the best advice we could give is for him to seek and secure alternative employment that will not impact on his illness. One thing perhaps worth mentioning is that he can appeal against a decision to sanction and if he has evidence of an illness which doesn't preclude him from work per se but did interfere with his ability to perform in the role from which he was dismissed he may be able to present an argument. He can also submit a claim hardship payments if sanctioned but I cannot guarantee that he would be accepted for hardship payments. He would not be eligible for any Social Fund assistance (i.e Crisis loans) if he was sanctioned.

If an appeal is unsuccessful, hardship is unsucessful and he doesn't qualify for the other benefits mentioned, the only way he can eat is by visiting a food bank.

It's unclear whether he does have a condition or doesn't have a condition but is generally having a tough time of it and choosing to drink alcohol which fuels his temper. If he does not have a condition and is perfectly able to function unless he chooses to drink (by that I mean if he makes the choice to drink, not if he is addicted to alcohol which is very different) then I would give you some advice also - wash your hands. I understand you are trying to help and for that you should be commended - but if a person does not have a condition and starts to lean on you to support them, and you pick up the pieces every time, you go from being a supporter to an enabler which could well come with its own set of consequences for you and your family. Bear in mind that you are no longer an employer of this man and owe him no duty of care. Be careful and look after yourself and your family.