Hi Group,

I have what I assume are my HFC Account No's from Direct Debits on my bank statements and amounts payed from up to 12 years ago.

Are these likely to be account numbers?

I just wondered if there would be any point in trying to reclaim PPI I know I paid at the time.

HFC (Call Centre) state no other info is held

and are most unhelpful suggesting an account number on record that bears no resemblence to any of mine

and then stating it may be a "dummy account" !!

The expected - we are unable to retrive any info on accounts over six years old has been given.

Requests for information to Coventry address were ignored so I have proceeded with FOS PPI claim forms sent registered/signed for.

Any advice re the above would be welcomed.

Big Fish vs HFC

i'd sar them

dx

Hi

Is that the £10 fee for all info/accounts? Do you think they would dig anything up?

Big Fish

we have known 1993 to now

dx

SAR to Coventry or Birmingham address?

Big Fish

HFC Bank Limited Registered Office: Camden House West,The Parade,

Birmingham B1 3PY

ims

Reply from HFC after sending FOS questionaire

As expected cannot trace files.. 6 years old so securely destroyed to comply with thier data protection regulations.

SAR sent

Any advice welcomed

Big Fish

they've pulled that a few time

but never produce certificates of distruction when asked.

dx

What does the failure to produce certificates of distruction mean in legal terms?

i suggest you do some research

try out search top right

or a std search engine.

dx

Thanks dx

I have searched extensively but cannot find if destruction records should legally be kept. ICO seem only to make recomendations that this is good practice.

Big Fish

You must put them to strict proof that the records do not exist ifthey state they do not. This means you must insist they produce evidence ofdestruction of the documents certified by a registered data controller withintheir organisation as is required under the Civil Evidence Act 1995. This actsrequires banks and other institutions to keep auditable records ondocumentation they hold and includes certification of destruction.

Thanks for the info dx lets hope SAR turns up some info.

Big Fish

Hi All

Just to update nothing heard from SAR request as yet.

Seven accounts in total with HFC.

Two of these were revolving credit,

two fixed term and others loans.

Revolving credit were refinnances of other agreements.

Four are with FOS but have not registered claims on other three as yet,

will ask FOS way forward on these.

Big Fish

Update reply dated 8/3/12

Re PPI Complaint

Further to your recent complaint,

At the present time we have been unable to resolve your complaint, as the investigation is yet to be completed.

With our acknowledgement letter sent to you, we advised that the account number that you had quoted is no longer available on our systems (SAR sent no info as yet).

Please provide the legal agreement and bank statements to establish the term of the loan (Loans, four registered in complaint)

and number of payments made or any relevant documents to support your claim.

As soon as this information has been received we can begin our investigation and a full response will be issued to you in writing.

May we request your patience for a further 28 days, by which time we would hope?? to be in a position to bring your complaint to a conclusion.

Please accept our sincere apologies foe the delay in responding to you.

Yours Sincerely

Central Complaints Department

Above info forwarded to FOS any advice?

UPDATE : Letter from Kellie Glover Complaint Investigator 14/03/12

Regret unable to uphold complaint

Accounts over 6 yrs old so to meet HFC's data protection obligations all accounts securely destroyed, so unable to review docs in support of my claim.

Letter is final response however if I provide docs, agreements, statements ppi policy will investigate if I reply in 28 days of letter.

I also spoke to Kellie on the phone and she informed me another acccount number had been found.

Also stated that info on one of the accounts indicated it was a B&Q card but no PPI!!!

Strange that one should remain despite there data protection obligations.

SAR apparently on the way but told not to expect anything as above.

FOS have advised I wait for final response to other 3 accounts then file all to them.

Also send all statements to HFC and be as helpful as pos. Any advice anyone?

Big Fish

Hi

So SAR information has not yet arrived....if that's the case wait for the information. If they are outside the 40 days then send them the failed SAR letter from the library.

Problem is that with accounts this old they may have destroyed the data as they say.

Have you not got anything else on these loans apart from what you guess are account numbers?

it may be best to file the other three with fos in the manner they suggest since without information and evidence that you were mis-sold I don't think court is the way to go given that the onus to prove mis-selling will be on you

ims

Hi Ims21

Below is info available. I am also going to pick up more bank statements from 97 - 01 but these are odd statements, also a couple of reciepts where |I have paid cash over the counter are available.

Below is all the info I have regarding my HFC accounts:

Account 1

02/08/99 – HFC Bank XXXXXXX7 – Direct Debit £57.51

10/10/99 – HFC Bank XXXXXXX7 – Direct Debit £61.10

04/09/00 – HFC Bank XXXXXXX7 – Direct Debit £79.00

Above info is all that is available from some old bank statements. No start/ settlement dates, amount borrowed or terms available.

Account 2

15/09/99 – HFC Bank XXXXXXX7 – Direct Debit £17.07

Above info is all that is available from an old bank statement. No start/ settlement dates, amount borrowed or terms available.

Account 3

633163 XXXXXXXXX0 Budget (Revolving Account)

16/12/97 – 31/05/03 Credit Limit £1000

Above info is all that is available, no record of payments made in HFC branch. I assume this was a refinance of one or both of the above accounts. Details show on 2007 credit file. Current Account Plus?

Account 4

XXXXXXXXXXX0 Credit Sale Fixed Term

01/08/02 – 10/10/02

Monthly Payment £11 over 36 Months

02/09/02 DD £11.42

01/10/02 DD £11.42

Above info is all that is available from bank statements and 2007credit file.

Account 5

XXXXXXXXXXX9 Budget (Revolving Account)

10/10/02 – 12/03/04 Credit Limit £2500

04/11/02 DD £36.46

05/12/02 DD£56.90

06/01/03 DD £60.40

04/02/03 DD £60.31

07/03/03 DD £75.37

04/04/03 DD £74.58

06/05/03 DD £73.94

04/06/03 DD £76.56

07/07/03 DD £75.91

04/08/03 DD £75.21

04/09/03 DD £74.57

06/10/03 DD £76.33

04/11/03 DD £76.59

05/12/03 DD £75.93

05/01/04 DD £75.23

04/02/04 DD £74.59

08/03/04 DD £74.35

Above info is all that is available from bank statements and 2007credit file. Judging by short term of Account 4 I would assume this is a refinance including that outstanding amount. Current Account Plus?

Account 6

XXXXXXXXXXX7 – Credit Sale Fixed `Term

13/08/03 – 08/03/04

Monthly Payment £41 over 48 Months

15/09/03 DD £48.04

13/10/03 DD £48.04

13/11/03 DD £48.04

15/12/03 DD £48.04

13/01/04 DD £48.04

13/02/04 DD £48.04

Above info is all that is available from bank statements and 2007credit file.

Account 7

XXXXXXXXXXX0 Loan

24/10/03 – 08/03/04

Monthly Payment £47 over 12 Months

01/12/03 DD £47.89

02/01/04 DD £47.89

02/02/04 DD £47.89

01/03/04 DD £47.89

Above info is all that is available from bank statements and 2007credit file.

All HFC accounts were settled in March 2004 as indicated.

Big Fish

Update

Letter recieved today usual HFC fob off data destroyed. No SAR as yet. Letter related to two accounts and came on B&Q letter headed paper with HFC's own twist on FOS questionaire. I will scan & post when I get time.

Big Fish

Message for

Scooby_Doo2 S

tockport Branch. Cannot message your inbox is full.

Thanks Big Fis

h

SAR recieved, worst £10 I have ever spent!

No agreements all destroyed, no certificates of destruction as requested. Just a load of recent info in regard to ppi and one old account B&Q that they state no ppi on. Am I right to send failed SAR or is it off to court if they fail to produce certs of destruction?

Please advise

Big Fish

Hi

Responding to PM

If it were me I'd make a pest of myself and send them the failed SAR letter. You can amend it to say something along the lines that they have refused to provide your personal data and have used the excuse that it has been destroyed. However they have not provided any evidence of this event by way of the certificates of destruction. Until such time as they provide you with evidence of destruction you will assume they they are holding your data and refusing to part with it.

You will also bring this to the attention of fos

That will then be brought to the attention of the ICO by way of formal complaint against the bank.

You can issue proceedings for compliance but as has been said before, it may well be that due to the passage of time the records have been destroyed.

Handing over what information you do have to fos won't hurt but see what they come back with the failed SAR approach.

ims

Thanks Ims

PM'ed you letter for failed SAR what do you think, if ok i will post.

Big Fish

Hi

Sorry been a bit busy

You can post your proposed failed SAR letter here in open forum.

There is also the CAG template one here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?593-Data-Protection-Act-Non-Compliance-Template-Letters

ims

Hi all

Proposed letter to HFC for failed SAR below:

Dear Sir/Madam

It would appear that HFC Bank are either being deliberately obstructive or have not fully understood their obligations when interpreting my SAR request in its entirety. In doing so they have wrongly interpreted the Data Protection Act (1998) as a requirement to only disclose six years worth of personal data, and this is wholly wrong. The Data Protection Act clearly states that all information held must be disclosed and it has no correlation to the Limitation Act 1980 at all. Until such time as HFC Bank provides me with evidence of destruction I will assume they are holding my data and refusing to disclose it.

I would also like to draw the following information to the Data Compliance Officer/s of HFC Bank

The UK Civil EvidenceAct 1995

“.........The key to getting electronic copy documents accepted in court will be the quality of the audit trail from the original through to the copy submitted in court. The British Standards Institute (BSI) has published a Code of Practice, Legal Admissibility of Information Stored on Electronic Document Management Systems.....”

Furthermore

The issue of Legal Admissibility is at the core of records management principles. An organisation needs to be able to prove (to a court of law or some other statutory body) that the contents of a particular document or data file created or existing within an Electronic Document Management System have not changed since the time of storage. If the data file is an electronically stored image of an original paper document, an organisation must be able to prove that the electronic image is a true representation of the original. Proving the authenticity of electronically stored documents is crucial to their admissibility in a court.

In England and Wales, the main statute governing the admissibility of documents is the Civil Evidence Act 1995. This Act resolved many of the outstanding legal difficulties that had arisen through the use of computers for information storage. The Civil Evidence Act shifted the argumentfrom legal admissibility to evidential weight or value. It makes it easier to prove the authenticity of documents, by producing the original or a copy, irrespective of the number of removes between the original and the copy and irrespective of whether or not the document is a paper one or an electronic one. The court needs to be satisfied as to the authenticity of the copy, and therefore an organisation needs to be able to demonstrate that it has administrative procedures that will satisfy the court as to a document's authenticity.

Irrespective of issues of legal admissibility or evidential weight, an organisation should ensure that the electronic storage of information complies at all times with best practice. As well as needing tomeet legal requirements an organisation has business and ethical reasons for ensuring that the information it controls is not mishandled.

An organisation needs to demonstrate that it complies withthe five principles of information management on which the Code is based. These principles are encapsulated into a code of practice - the “Code of Practice forLegal Admissibility and Evidential Weight for Information Stored Electronically” (BIP0008) published by the British Standards Institute.Compliance with BIP0008 will ensure that the organisation manages its information according to best practice, thereby maximising the chance of electronic records being satisfactorily authenticated.

An organisation will need to have in place the following five information management components:

• 1. Representation of Information (i.e. an information management policy)

• 2. A Duty of Care

• 3. Business Procedures and Processes

• 4. EnablingTechnologies

• 5. Audit Trails

I intend to hold HFC Bank to strict proof that the records do not exist if they state they do not. In simple terms I shall require you produce evidence of destruction of the documents certified by a registered data controller within your organisation as is required under the Civil Evidence Act 1995. This act requires banks and other institutions to keep auditable records on documentation they hold and includes certification of destruction.

It is with dismay that I come across suggestions that HFC Bank deliberately shredded documentation relating to accounts with PPI destroying evidence in support of claims. I hope you are able to disprove comments such as “Be aware though that HFC shredded loads of stuff in the past to try and wriggle out of their PPI miss-selling obligations. They have been fined £1.8 million”.

Information received thus far dates back to 1997 so obviously was not destroyed/shredded as per your stated data protection obligations. Information was also supplied on one account that you state was not covered with PPI… I find this perplexing but in line with above comments re destruction of evidence.

I would wish to point out that the full extent of information requested in my original letter SAR (subject access request) dated 20/02/12 has not been forthcoming. By law under the provisions of the Data Protection Act 1998 Section 7 sub section (1) ( c ) ( i ) and (ii) you are required to communicate to me in an intelligible form the information as requested within the requirements of the Act section 7 (2) (a) and (b), which as the data subject I have met.

I stated in my Subject Access Requests the following:

“Full copies of all contracts which you believe exist or have existed between myself and your organization, including true copies of any documents you hold in support of the same”.

“A complete list of all transactions or statements relating to ALL of my Loan Accounts and or credit card with your organization”.

“Copies of all documents which include any of my personal information including copies of any contacts or invoices, emails or computer records containing my personal information, or any records which pertain to this information”.

“Full copies or transcripts of any correspondence in postal, email or any other format which you have entered into with any individual, organization or third party which contains my personal or financial information, or which pertains to me”.

When I request alldetails, I take that to include all data applicable to the loan accounts including the data on payment protection insurance (PPI) including the terms and conditions applicable to the insurance applied to the loans.

If at this second request you are then unable to trace the information on accounts then I will require the following action to be taken by your organisation.

- Where any previous information or records held have been deleted or disposed of, the methods used to do so, including dates, certificates or references confirming details of destruction. Where you are unable to provide such certificates, please provide a declaration, signed by an authorised officer of your company, confirming the dates and methods of destruction of this data.

To date I have not received this full information. I await the following:

1. Full details of PPI including the terms and conditions as applicable to all accounts.

2. Full transcripts of all telephone conversations thathave been recorded between your organisation and myself.

3. Full copies of all credit agreements and contracts between HFC Bank and myself.

4. Full copies of any and all postal or emailcorrespondence.

If there is no information available then I will require written confirmation of this together with as stated before full details on your methods of erasure, disposal or destruction signed by an authorised officer of your company.

Failure to respond to this second request in a fully comprehensive and satisfactory manner within 14 days will result in the submission of a formal complaint to the Information Commissioners Office detailing your failure to comply with the Data Protection Act 1998. Copies of this letter have been forwarded to the Information Commissioners Office and the Financial Ombudsman’s Service.

Please let me know what you all think.

Big Fish