Another daft question for a Friday morning...........

What do ATOS class as being a 'Healthcare Professional' for the purposes of their ESA Limited Work Capability Assessments?

A friend attended an assessment with one of her friends back in November (at a different centre to where I will be attending this month) and the 'healthcare professional' informed them that they were neither a doctor or a nurse but were qualified to carry out the assessment.

Is it ok for the claimant to ask what healthcare qualification the assessor has that makes them suitable to carry out the assessments?

I am getting worried about my upcoming assessment and that, as with so many people, I will be awarded 0 points and so will be declared fit to work.

Feebee_71

Hi there,

No question is daft

This may help you,.

Atos say: "Before working for Atos Healthcare, healthcare professionals must have at least 3 years’ post-registration experience across a wide range of specialities, and this must include some generalist training. All employees are provided with additional, comprehensive training specific to disability analysis. For the Work Capability Assessment, this includes an 8 day course for all doctors and a 17 day course for nurses and physiotherapists".

You have every right to ask to see their certificates before they examine you.

Thanks for that reply.

I was concerned that someone would openly announce that they weren't a doctor or nurse but were qualified to carry out the assessments. I see they don't say what they have to be qualified in before gaining that 3 years post registration experience. Although they do include nurses, doctors and physiotherapists in their course lengths specifically for the WCA.

I wonder what I could do if the assessor refused to either show me their certificate or only had their ATOS ID with them?

Feebee_71

I don't know myself, though it seems they would need some kind of certification by law. I have heard that they are not very good when it comes to mental health though I suspect this is because they assume everyone coming to them on a mental grounds to be somehow trying to lie. My examiner did not know what Septo-optic dysplaxia was, nor Levothyroxine for Hypothyroidism.

Whereas with most 'medicals' you can ask for a second opinion, you can't when it comes to ATOS - not to my knowledge, anyway.

I think it helps to remember that they are working for a private organization and they are tasked with weeding out those who would try to cheat the system which makes a lot of innocent people suffer. It is the view of myself after expiriencing one of their medicals that they are abrasive, judgemental and leave many people feeling very low in the name of this persuit. I think the medical is more like an interview anyway, and I am sure that one of ATOS' main quotas is to keep Goverment out-of-work statistics at a low.

I asked the man examining me if he was a qualified doctor, to which he simply assured me he was. If anything, I'd say asking counted against me. I should have asked for a certification or at least his name and ID after a bad expirience.

Yes I would ask ..I had mine cancelled 3 times due to them not having someone with the right qual.!! for the job only to find out after that the doc that did do mine had no idea regards mental health...he had only just qual. from med school ...did appeal and got ESA .

I will make sure next time ...only hope there won`t be a next time though!!

good luck

Can I ask a question to anyone who'd know -

After having you medical examination and putting in an appeal, can you request the full report from ATOS, as well as the ID of the examiner you had/their qualifications? Because it is the one thing that isn't included in the appeal pack along with all the other 'evidence'.

I did not have a "medical" when I was moved from IB to ESA, but I did have quite a lot while getting IB, and they where all carried out by doctors. When my wife was going through her appeal for DLA they sent a real doctor out to speak to her as she was unable to go to the tribunal. When my ESA and/or DLA comes up for assessment I shall insist on a doctor carrying out the medical. I will not risk carrying out tasks that could well result in injury or even another heart attack unless a doctor is present. When I did go to my IB medicals the doctors always accepted that I couldn't carry out all the taks.

In theory I shouldn't need to see another doctor, the DWP have access to all my medical records, x-rays, doctors reports and the results of many years of medicals, if they can't make an informed descision form all that info they should employ someone with the correct qualifications/expertise to do so.

Can I ask a question to anyone who'd know -

 

After having you medical examination and putting in an appeal, can you request the full report from ATOS, as well as the ID of the examiner you had/their qualifications? Because it is the one thing that isn't included in the appeal pack along with all the other 'evidence'.

Hello there.

I thought they were meant to send the Atos report, but you certainly need to ask for it and find all the things they may have made up about you, it will be the basis for your appeal. I have a feeling the assessor's name is on the report, but don't quote me.

My best, HB

I was told to ring the Dept of Works and pensions that were dealing with the claim and ask for a full copy of the assessment. It should be the ESA65 and ESA85 you get copies of. I asked for a full copy of the written report and it had the name of the Registered Nurse who "assessed" me. It showed all the discrepancies to enable me to argue my case. I had a friend who came and took notes throughout too, so that helped.

It was a marvellous help because it also showed the descriptors and points I failed to get. It proved they hadn't even looked at the ESA50 I'd filled in.

Just a word of advice if you do need to appeal, make sure you photocopy any correspondence you post and that it is sent by registered post and you can track them down on Royal Mail site to see if they have been signed for as DWP have a tendency to lose important papers.

Make a copy of all correspondence to and from them, too.

Write down all times and dates of phone calls and get names.

After all this info....Can I just say to you..........

Try not to jump ahead of yourself, you may not need to appeal, you might just be fine. You'll make yourself ill if you try to sort out problems that haven't arisen yet. All I can say to comfort you is that, if you do fail, there is always help at hand. Knowing you aren't alone to me was such a comfort. Ask for as much help as you can but only when you need it and meanwhile try not to let it take over your life until you've actually had your medical. It's hard, but very important to just take one day at a time.

Sura ...ring them up and request the medical report they have to send it to you ....the name and qual. if any are on there of whoever did the assessment ...you will find it a wonderful read

Spots1

I hope I'm wrong, (I don't think I am though) but I have heard that midwives sometimes carry out these "medicals"?

I received my WCA result today 0 points, it came as no surprise, what was a surprise was the summary by the doctor that conducted the test. Quote "Mr H*****y walked normally for 30 minutes to the examination room" It's not a 30 minute walk from Archway tube to the test centre, a five minute stroll would get you there early, so what was he basing that observation on then, 30 mins to cover the 10 yards from the waiting room to the examination room?

Four tries at the peak flow test, he was patently not happy that I did not manage to move the pointer down the tube enough to satisfy him that I possess the lungs of an opera singer, his actual words were " his peak flow technique was not optimal making the reading unreliable"

There is quite a bit more but I don't want to bore you all, suffice to say the summary was a masterpiece in inventive writing, I will be appealing.

This was a doctor who blatantly ignored evidence of my condition as supplied by his peers, in the form of one GP and one thoracic specialist, who manipulated a peak flow test, and who made up some rubbish about walking for a half hour, so IMHO it does not matter if the test is administered by a doctor, nurse, midwife, or hospital porter come to that, the agenda will still be to fail the claimant.

Thanks, Spots. I found it this morning - or rather my partner did. Sometimes I miss things. His name and qualifications would be useful though.

Having read over my report with my partner this morningggg... I'm writing them off. There's nothing I can do for now but refer back to the earlier statement I made. They are a private company, in this for goals outlined by the Goverment. With the amount of lies, mixed truths, vague statments, twisted words, unreported findings, etc, they must be. For example, in this 'medical' report, there is not one mention of my medical condition by name. Septo-optic dysplaxia. Simple. Him being a doctor, should know how it'd effect me, huh? Should know enough to ask.

I challenge anyone here to find below 5 instances of blatent lies in their reports.

This was a doctor who blatantly ignored evidence of my condition as supplied by his peers, in the form of one GP and one thoracic specialist, who manipulated a peak flow test, and who made up some rubbish about walking for a half hour, so IMHO it does not matter if the test is administered by a doctor, nurse, midwife, or hospital porter come to that, the agenda will still be to fail the claimant.

This, I think, is key. People get very hung up on the specifics: the identity and qualifications of the person doing the exam. Actually, that doesn't really matter because they're working from a script.

I'd suggest that people should focus on the errors made as revealed by the ESA85 - questioning the credentials of the examiner is likely to achieve little more than raising the blood pressure of the claimant.

I agree Sura mine missed out 2 conditions which were on my form that I filled out and also I sent in hospital reports and x-ray reports as I have more than one problem not just the mental health issue ....even said that I could do things that they never even asked or checked ...I refused to do 2 things and then they contradicted themselves later by saying I could do the dam things :/

Have you looked up the qual. of the person who did the assesment if it was a doc you can check the registration no. for the dates of qual etc.

No, but I had the same problem. In one he states I can walk 10 metres down the corridor consistantly but slowly, and then later on he states I had problems when navigating my way due to vision, and then later on states I had no problems in navigation. He also makes up statements that are not at all discussed, such as me recieving visits from my mother who lives at the other end of the country and me being able to text, which is what I told him I can not specifically do on a phone. He also says I 'appear tense and anxious,' at one point when later stating, 'no rocking leads me to believe she was not anxious.' He tells a mistruth - essentially my GP said my pain may come from X source, and we'd have to test to see, but it turned out negative, and he says 'GP said pain is a result of X.'

Essentially, I don't mean to go over my case, or intrude on anyone else's personal cases. I do agree with the above poster who says the problem is in the system and not in the individuals who are responsible for carrying out the examinations as they likely have quotas and goals. I will likely not follow up and get his details unless the CAB or Welfare Rights reps I speak too think I should --- I want as little to do with them as possible, they make me sick. Quite literally, actually.

I would have asked for evidence of qualifications upon entering, and I would also take a friend, relative or rep of some kind to the medical if I had the chance to do it again, though. People need to be better informed - these are NOT medical examinations, they are exersises in trimming statistics and they will cheat you any way they can to do that.

For the point of view of anyone suffering with mental conditions or disorders, I would advise this even more so, because I suffered several panic attacks and bouts of differing emotion due to this medical, but because I wanted the problem solved and cleared up and knew I had to try my best to explain myself that's what I did, tried my best, made myself as presentable and communicative as possible, telling myself it'd only be twenty minutes then I could go home and be safe, and not worry. This comes across to them as an able, if a little tense/anxious person, no matter what you tell them. The 'doctor' did not even ask me how I was currently feeling nevermind delve into mind-based questioning, yet he still felt abliged to write up a report on my mental state.

they are trained to access how your disability affects you using a system of questions and visual observations. the scoring is called descriptors. so there are some trick questions. most centres deliberately have the assessment room more them 50 metres from the waiting area. this is when the scoring starts. make it to the room walking and you got your first zero.

atos has been awarded the contract to access everyone on disability living allowance from oct 2013. so i guess this site is going to be very busy.

they get away with not being a doctor or nurse because they are assessing how you disability affects you. and offer no medical advice.

this explain pretty much how it works

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pip-assessment-thresholds-and-consultation.pdf

this makes good reading from someone who under went it

I recently had a medical for esa, which I have found out today has been successful - from the fact that arrears have been paid into the bank, though I don't know which group yet as the arrears don't really tally for either. Sorry its a bit of a wall of text, but there was a lot of info to share.

I was not expecting to be successful - as a benefits caseworker, I'm well aware of the flaws in the descriptors and in the medical itself.

I wanted to share how I'd approached this in the hope that it may be able to help others.

Firstly, find a benefits adviser to help you complete the esa50. If you really can't find someone to help then take your time completing the form - you have 6 weeks normally. Read the questions carefully - they do not always mean what you think they mean. Before you start get a copy of the descriptors off of the internet, go through them carefully and decide which descriptors apply to you.

When completing the esa50, do not just tick the boxes - write as much as you can for each question, if possible giving examples from daily life. For example, if you say you can't stand for more than 10 minutes, give examples of different things that this means you can't do - in the case of standing it might be that you can't do the washing up, or take a shower standing up etc. For a mental health issue like execution of tasks, it may take you a long time to do things - so a 5 line email may take a healthy person 5 minutes but takes you 30 minutes. When you're finished take a copy of the form before you send it so that you know what you've written. Consistency is very important in this process - the best way to be consistent is to be completely honest about your capabilities - the truth is always the easiest thing to remember!

Also remember, the descriptors are all that matters for most. They don't really care about anything else. The one caveat to this is that if going back to work would cause substantial mental or physical harm, make sure you write this down on the 'any other information' section of the form. Explain how and why in detail, continue on a separate piece of paper if necessary. Before the medical get a letter from a doctor or consultant backing up that significant harm and deterioration would occur if you had to return to work.

There are a few exceptions for other things, but these won't apply to most people. See http://www.disabilityalliance.org/f32.htm scroll down to number 3 and number 6 for details.

When the time comes for the medical, get it officially taped if possible - I wasn't able to do this, but it is becoming available now. Personally I would also covertly make my own recording, but this would be for ease as I think they give you a tape, and I'd rather have the digital recording available for myself. I did record covertly myself - but be careful doing this if there is no official recording going on as it may result in the medical and benefits being stopped if you get found out.

Take someone with you to the medical, this is particularly important if you have mental health problems. Firstly its a stressful process and having someone around to support you and advocate for you will be better for your mental health. Secondly, if you have mental health problems and seem to be managing fine in the medical (regardless of how you are actually managing) they will make assumptions like you managed the medical, you can manage some work. Thirdly, having someone with you who can advocate is wise. Someone who knows your capabilities and can speak for you if your mental health issue becomes incapacitating in the course of the medical.

Don't make any special effort for the medical. Be how you normally are. This is what they need to see - how you normally are every day, not how you are when you've psyched yourself up and are making a special effort - if you're not able to make this effort most days then don't do it.

Think carefully about the venue for the medical. Do you have to get on a bus to get there or a train? Is there parking close by, or would you have to walk a long way from the car park. Is it a long distance to travel? Is your condition so severe that you may need a home visit? Many people will push past their comfort zone for a one off event, but if you can't do it most days then don't do it for the medical.

For instance in my case, the medical was originally arranged in a different town (strange because I live in a city), I phoned to explain that there was no way I could manage an hour travelling each way by car, plus the time for waiting and the medical itself. Conveniently, it turned out it was possible to have the medical 10 minutes drive from me and only two days later (suggesting the initial appt was a test - ie, make it to this and you're capable of work). Even the venue nearby wasn't ideal. There was little parking outside, and I couldn't be guaranteed to be able to get parked. The next closest parking was several minutes walk away which I can't manage, so I decided to get a taxi to drop me right outside the building. Anything that you do to get to the medical and home again, they will make the assumption that you can do it everyday. They will take no account of the fact that may be pushing through pain and anxiety knowing its just one day, and you can rest as many days afterward that you need to (for me I was incapacitated for a week afterwards).

Yes, they probably are watching or filming you on cctv from the minute you arrive at the atos offices. But this should not bother anyone who is geniune - as our behaviour due to illness or disability does not differ in the medical, in the building, in a shop or in our homes, it is simply how we are.

The atos staff like to make assumptions, its the basis of how they assess you - assumptions.

When in the waiting room, if you do not tell them you are in severe pain or anxiety due to the excessive waiting time, they will assume you're doing just fine and coping well. I wasn't doing fine and went to ask the receptionist how much longer as I was in a lot of pain - I was then seen within 3 minutes.

When you're in the medical you need to be quite strong in making points about your condition and capabilities that are relevant to the descriptors. They will try and keep your answers yes and no - don't let them. If you have mental health problems, this is where your advocate will be most useful. For instance they may ask do you have a pet. You may say you have a dog. If you say nothing further they will assume that you take care of the dog, feeding and walking him. Or if you have a cat, they will assumed that you are the one feeding him and changing the kitty litter. They will assume that you deal with any pet related emergencies like unexpected trips to the vet. They may ask do you do your own shopping. If you answer yes they will assume you walk up and down all the aisles in tesco, wait in a checkout queue, fill the bags, haul them into a boot and then haul them into your house, even if you actually do your own shopping on line and have your shopping delivered and the nice man brings all the bags into the kitchen for you.

Even 'how did you get here today' can be a deceptive question. Answer that you drove there, and on your medical report it will say 'drives regularly'. Be specific, use every question as an opportunity to give more information about your capabilities. For instance, when asked how I got there, I explained that I can't walk far, couldn't guarantee a parking space, so I got a taxi to drop me outside, I also said I rarely drive now anyway because of physical limitations. Another example, 'do you see friends or family', just answer yes and the assumption will be that you see them regularly and are social and outgoing. But take the time to explain that you do see them, but only at your house, arranged in advance, but that you often cancel due to your condition, and if someone knocks on the door you hide and don't answer, that people you know understand that they can't just drop round. Each incorrect assumption that atos make is less points for you.

It is hard to take charge with some of the examiners - I was lucky, the person I had allowed me to speak. But if you're recording, the fact that you tried to say these things, and you were not allowed to continue will go a long way in your favour at appeal. Of course none of this will help if the person conducting the medical is not honest in their report - but there is nothing you can do about that except to find some way to record the medical.

If you are lucky enough to pass the medical and be put in the work group. Think carefully before appealing to be put in the support group. If you go to tribunal and are unsuccessful they can take your whole award away - so get specialist advice before making that decision.

If you do fail the medical, appeal immediately (within 1 month of the date on the decision letter) saying you believe the decision is wrong and that you should have scored in excess of 15 points - you don't need to be specific at that point. Check if you receive your payment on the day its due - if you don't receive it that can sometimes be the first indication that you have failed the medical. If you want to continue on esa while appealing, write this on the appeal form. Fax the form if possible as this will give a fax receipt that you sent the appeal.

I hope this might help anyone yet to attend.

Queensclose

The time allowed to complete the ESA50 has been reduced to four weeks, and it is policy to send a reminder out at week three.

You give some sage advice especially about questions having more than one meaning, claimants need to be educated more in not concentrating on general conditions, I see lots of indignant threads on here from people who have failed the WCA and then list a series of conditions that in all honesty do not fit the descriptors, and at the end of the day it's the descriptor score that decides success or failure in theory, the reality is that the score sheet for want of a better word is often manipulated by the HCP.

The only fair way around this IMHO is to make the form and substance of the WCA the same as what would be experienced at the appeal tribunal, as it stands now it is little more than an academic exercise that could be equally well achieved by post without physically seeing the claimant at all, medical evidence is routinely ignored and physical examinations are rudimentary at best, it's a 40 minute fiasco of trick questions and innuendo.

as it stands now it is little more than an academic exercise that could be equally well achieved by post without physically seeing the claimant at all, medical evidence is routinely ignored and physical examinations are rudimentary at best, it's a 40 minute fiasco of trick questions and innuendo.

Don't disagree with you in substance. But the WCA is not useless (from the government's POV), because it's another possible excuse to deny benefit. People might fail to attend. Or attend, fail, and not bother to appeal.

Let me be clear: I have been an ESA processor but never a claimant; I have no particular animosity towards the DWP.I'm not affected directly by any of this. But the system is complex by design, and the roadblocks are included by design.

continue on a separate piece of paper if necessary.

Any information put on other pieces of paper, must include your name and NINO.

Don't disagree with you in substance. But the WCA is not useless (from the government's POV), because it's another possible excuse to deny benefit. People might fail to attend. Or attend, fail, and not bother to appeal.

 

Let me be clear: I have been an ESA processor but never a claimant; I have no particular animosity towards the DWP.I'm not affected directly by any of this. But the system is complex by design, and the roadblocks are included by design.

I must admit that over the last year I have become a bit of a Don Quixote tilting at windmills, some of the injustice in this system ignites the bit of my brain that is left wing.

I feel no animosity toward the DWP, JCP, or any other tool of the state, they are all bureaucratic institutions and like any large institution are staffed by the good, the bad, and the indifferent, even though I do have a vested interest and a small axe to grind

Don't feel the need to defend yourself, your reputation, your status or anything else. Stating that you hold something against a system that is effecting many ill and vunerable people, wether it be yourself, a loved one, a client, a neighbour or a stranger, on a day to day basis will not reflect badly on you, and if it does it says more about the person reading into that than yourself.

I openly admit it is staffed by good people, bad people and indifferent people, but as has been stated before, I think we need to look past any dealings we have with individual staff members of the DWP. I've had a few, my relative has had a few, I've heard of many online and in the news - some good, some bad - that's the way of the world.

Yet, this system is a disgrace, based on assumptions and cons from both sides of the fence.

... I see lots of indignant threads on here from people who have failed the WCA and then list a series of conditions that in all honesty do not fit the descriptors, and at the end of the day it's the descriptor score that decides success or failure ...

I'm one of those whose condition does not meet the descriptors. An anomaly. Unfortunately the system can't cover everything but I can only hope it'll be improved with whatever amendments they're planning. Well, they were planning some at one stage. So far my record is applied for ESA twice, failed the ATOSH debacle twice and failed my tribunal twice. I appreciate it won't be third time lucky but it's the only benefit I can apply for. So waiting for my next ESA50 to thump on the door mat. It would be easy to get depressed about it or - as I have occassionaly! - suspect I must be malingering. It's a bit hard when you always slip through the grating.

But the DWP and the Tribunals have actually been incredibly supportive despite my results. Over two and a half years of interracting with my BDC I have absolutely no complaints. They are all superb. They understand my situation and appreciate how tough it is to try and get by on the assessment rates alone. This latest claim was fast tracked so I wouldn't be without money to live on. At my last Tribunal I really felt so sorry for the Chairman and the Medical Officer. They were very clearly distraught and upset that they could do nothing for me. The MO said everything he'd seen, every piece of evidence I'd provided, everything I said was exactly what he would expect from someone with lungs as bad as mine. But it's those pesky descriptors. As they stand, I won't fit them until I'm snuggling up to a bottle of oxygen with six months to go. In the mean time I remain both unable to work and inherently unemployable.

But I still smile and enjoy my existence to the best of my ability ...

... In the mean time ...

Rather like that unintentional pun! Of course I meant 'In the meantime' whilst it is, clearly, a 'mean time' ...

Forgot to add that when I failed my first tribunal my DWP Pathways Adviser nearly burst into tears. I felt bad for her too. I guess the laboured point I'm trying to make is those employed by the DWP are only human too. They're not uncaring, just stuck with an awful straightjacket to work in....