I've been reading else where on this and find that the Halifax statements

are correct although possibly open to challenge.

The only way to stop this is to change your bank, but

it could still cause problems for you as this would

amount to deliberate debt avoidance.

I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I'm NOT trying to avoid debt, instead I have been trying to agree a payment plan. This has taken many weeks to acheive which is why I have had these problems with my previous bank.

Also, am I right in thinking that you agree with the Halifax argument and thus think that the payments taken from my account are not CPAs and therefore miss the FSA rule on CPAs. If this is the case, do you think mine or others attempts to stop PDL CPAs with their banks and ultimatley complain to the FOS is a futile waste of time and energy.

Hi, My comment was not intended to imply that you were atempting to avoid the debt

merely to show how it could be seen.

It would seem that to give the authority to take continuos payments is contractual

having agreed to this by giving and authorising the use of card details.

I've been reading else where on this and find that the Halifax statements

are correct although possibly open to challenge.

Halifax should be able to stop the transactions. That is direct from the FSA - but only if they are CPA's of course - and CPA's are exactly what PDL's use.

I delivered 2 x letters today to Halifax for this purpose and was even able to speak to the manager. Staff were unsure and advised closing account and opening another. Seemed to be in the difficult to do box.

Well, closing account and opening another is the next best thing. It will involve a little work on your part making sure everythings in order, but at least you have complete control over your money again.

The accounts with PDL's for which I have notified the Halifax were with WONGA and TXTLOAN. I supplied both with my Debit Card details, which I have since cancelled.

Will this be sufficient to stop any further payments from Halifax account? The Halifax account is currently over limit of overdraft and TXTLOAN defaulted today. WONGA due tomorrow. My wages due in tomorrow also.

I'm unsure if TXTLOAN default because of no funds or me having cancelled debit card?

Halifax will still let them debit even if the cards been cancelled. There are way too many reports of it happening just on these forums alone. If i were you, id open a new account today, go to your online banking as soon as your wages are paid, in the early hours of the morning, then transfer it all to your new account. Too many PDL's will debit whatever they like, when they like, even if youve agreed a certain amount on a certain date.

Banks are defo not there to help, I got payed £1500 at the end of the month, my Tsb account was maxed on the overdraft so I transferred all my £1500 to my new natwest account then, with my Tsb account maxed at -£3000 quick quid took £625 and paydayuk tool £375 after I told them

Not to because the cash would not be there, now Tsb let them take it now I am -£4000 overdrawn and £1000 In unauthorised overdraft, I've contacted the bank and they say there is nothing they can do!!!! Makes me do mad, I know it's my fault for taking these loans out but no one ever seems to want to help they just want to take take take,,, Tsb can poke it I'm leaving the account at what it is

Get a complaint in with the banks head office and also with the FSA.

Hi Sequenci

Thought you might be interested in Mike Dailly a top solicitor from Govan Law Centre.At the moment he is

asking Bank Of Scotland this question for a client of his

Why are you breaking the law? My client sought to cancel paydayloan company continuing payment authority you refused. Why?

Things are building he is not happy his client has been treated this way.

Another question from Mike is

Why won't you obey the law, r.55 Payment Services Regs 2009, and let customers cancel paydayloan account debits?

Bank Of Scotland are replying but seem to have gone quiet on the following question from Mike Dailly

It would be helpful if you could share your position on reg 55 and CPAs?

I am finding this a interesting story and will be interested in the outcome.

It seems to be a rapidly developing story.

Latest statement from Mike-

BBC Radio 4 MoneyBox are interested in your failure here. As am I.

That's great. Mike's a top guy and well and truly in the corner of the consumer - he has a long association with CAG.

Well the latest and i suppose for now the outcome is that the client contacted Bank Of Scotland

and they said it could take 8 weeks to resolve.

As Mike Dailly has just said a miserable failure by Bank Of Scotland.

Not even a answer to his questions.

But i do not think it will end there.

To many people now want answers from Bank Of Scotland.

Any updates i will put on.

I am sure there will be more fireworks.

A final thought from someone else Must every aggrieved customer go public to get their difficulties addressed?

Banks deny customers' rights over payment cancellations

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17870704

Seems Mike Dailly of the Govan Law Centre is getting stuck in.Somebody like Mike seems to be able to put the cat amongst the pigeons.The consumers champion.He will shake things up.For sure.What is it with banks.Will people ever be able to trust them again.Who do they think they are.Nice one Mike-take it to them.

Mike Dailly, a consumer lawyer at the Govan Law Centre, who also sits on the FSA's Consumer Panel, told Radio 4's Money Box programme that the obligations for banks were clear.

"You have the right to cancel one of these continuous payment authorities and you can go to your bank, they can't put up any hurdles," he said.

“Start Quote

Lloyds TSB- Due course-how about now.

"They should have simple procedure for you to do that. You don't have to have the permission of the payee."

Well Banks you must act.The customer comes first.Grrr

So if you go into your bank to cancel your continuous payment authority and they will not,let the money box team know.And raise hell.To the manager maybe not the staff.Some of them probably are in the same boat.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/891726.stm

Must every aggrieved customer go public to get their difficulties addressed?

Here is another article hot of the press from the Govan Law Centre.

http://govanlc.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/banks-deny-customers-rights-over.html

If you want to just press the listen button-save you reading the story.

CPA discussion today.

BBC Radio 4's Money Box

Saturday, 28 April 2012 at 1204 BST On Radio 4 and Online

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/

Because this regulation has been in existence since 2009, if you had a problem with your instruction to stop payments not being obeyed by a bank and payments continued then you can make a claim and possibly interest on that claim. You will, of course, have to be able to show that you did in fact issue an instruction to cease the payment.

Lets remember that banks are just Private Companies and not Government Agencies or have any sort of authority over the public, they are no different than the newsagent around the corner except in the one fact, they get their stock, not by paying the cash and carry, but by being, (usually forcibly) given it free of charge. Their stock is your money, your wages, your benefits, not theirs.

(4) Subject to regulation 67(3) to (5), the payer may withdraw its consent to the execution of a series of payment transactions at any time with the effect that any future payment transactions are not regarded as authorised for the purposes of this Part.

Be aware that some other well known sites such as MSE and some Government departments are giving the wrong information and stating that "you cannot cancel these transactions", this is bad advice and should be disregarded.

Listen to Moneybox here (1st item):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01gng5g#synopsis

THE CONTINUOUS PAYMENTS RACKET

You can cancel a future payment due on your debit or credit card by telling your bank or card provider.

But just about every bank and credit card provider in the UK has told customers they cannot do that and given them false information about their rights to cancel payments on credit and debit cards.

These payments are called ‘continuous payment authorities’ or ‘recurring payments’. I will call them CPAs. They are NOT direct debits or standing orders which are regular payments from your current account and are covered by separate rules. You have always been able to stop a direct debit or standing order just by telling your bank. But until recently CPAs have been very different.

A CPA is an agreement you make with a retailer, hotel, gym, insurance company, lender or other firm providing you with a service (they are all called ‘merchants’ in the bank jargon). You give the merchant permission to take money from a credit card or a debit card. Even though the debit card money comes out of your current account it is NOT a direct debit – it is a CPA.

The agreement can be made over the phone and it allows the merchant to take money in the future off your card. You normally have no control over the amount that is taken or when – it can be any amount at any time.

In some cases these CPAs are a [problem] – you think you are buying one item online only to find that you are committed to paying monthly for years. In other cases payday loan companies will store your details and recover future debts using the original card details. Even subscriptions to gyms, publications or insurance premiums are taken through a CPA because the merchant believes it puts them in control of when the payment is cancelled.

In the past it has been very difficult to stop these payments. Originally CPAs could only be stopped by the merchant. If you went to your bank or card company it would say that it could do nothing and advise you to contact the merchant to stop the payment. If the merchant refused the bank or card provider would continue to allow the merchant to take your money.

That changed on 1 November 2009 when a new law came into force. It is in the Payment Services Regulations 2009. It makes it clear that your bank or card provider has to stop the payments if you ask it to do so even if the merchant refuses to cancel it or even if you have not told the merchant.

If the bank or card provider does not obey your instructions then it has to refund any subsequent payment it allows to be taken from your account. And if a subsequent payment causes you to incur any fees – such as an overdraft charge or a late payment fee – or to lose any interest, then those losses have to be refunded too.

Despite that change in the law Money Box listeners and my tweeps have reported this week that just about every bank and card provider in the UK has wrongly told them recently that they can only cancel the payment through the merchant. They include Amex, Barclays, Co-operative Bank, First Direct, Halifax, HSBC, MBNA, Lloyds, M&S, Nationwide, NatWest, Post Office, RBS, Santander, and Smile.

Some banks have even advised that the only way to stop the payment is to close the account and cut up the card. Not only is that advice wrong it may not work. Visa and Mastercard can let merchants track you and move the agreement to a card you take out in the future. It has also been known for a bank or credit card provider to try to recover the money – and penalty charges – from customers who have cancelled a card.

Some banks admit they have given customers the wrong information. Lloyds Banking Group – which includes Halifax and Bank of Scotland – has still not updated the terms and conditions on all its accounts to reflect the new law. And both Lloyds and Santander have admitted that customers have been wrongly advised.

If you want to cancel a CPA

Tell your bank or card provider that you have a CPA and name the merchant; give any other details you can such as how the payment appears on your statement and, if you know, the dates and times when the payment is normally taken. Tell the bank that you cancel that payment authority with immediate effect. Quote regulation 55 of the Payment Services Regulations 2009.

You can give this instruction on the phone, through an online message, by letter, or at a personal visit to a branch. It is best to do it in writing but always make a note of the time and date when you give the instruction.

If a payment from that merchant is taken in future, contact the bank again and say you want that money (and any penalties or losses it may have caused you to incur) refunded immediately under regulation 61.

If the bank or card provider refuses to do so, or fails to do so after eight weeks, you can take your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk or call 0800 023 4567 from a landline or 0300 123 9 123 from a monthly contract mobile. The FOS will most likely take your side in the dispute.

If you have told your bank to cancel a CPA in the past

If your bank or card provider has failed to act on your instructions to cancel a CPA at any time since 1 November 2009 you should be able to get back all the payments taken from your account since you gave that instruction. The bank or card provider has to refund them to you. You should also get back any penalties that the transaction led you to incur such as an overdraft charge or a late payment fee and any loss of interest.

The rules depend on when you gave the instruction – it must always be on or after 1 November 2009 – and when the payment was made.

Payments made in the last 13 months.

Tell the bank or card provider

·That you gave a clear instruction to cancel the payment on a particular date (which must be 1 November 2009 or later)

·That the payment made was after that date and was therefore unauthorised under reg.55(3) and 55(4)of the Payment Services Regulations 2009

·That you are entitled to an immediate refund of the amount and any penalties under reg. 61

·That the event occurred less than 13 months ago as specified in reg.59(a)

Payments taken between 1 November 2009 and 13 months ago

Tell the bank or card provider

·That you gave a clear instruction to cancel the payment on a particular date (which must be 1 November 2009 or later)

·That the payment was unauthorised under reg.55(3) and 55(4) of the Payment Services Regulations 2009

·That you are entitled to redress under reg. 61

·That under reg.59(2) the thirteen month time limit does not apply because the bank or card provider failed to give you adequate information under Part 5 of the Regulations.

You should also add that the bank or card provider has a duty to treat you fairly and to give information which is clear, fair and not misleading. When you asked it to cancel the payment it failed to explain your rights correctly thus preventing you from taking the correct action at the right time.

If the bank refuses take your case to the Financial Ombudsman Service – details above.

The law

The Payment Services Regulations 2009 www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/209/contents/made implemented the EU Directive 2007/64/EC http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2007:319:0001:0036:EN:PDF

The Regulations came into force on 1 November 2009. Regulation 55 covers a customer (the payer) consenting to a payment being made and withdrawing that consent. Regulation 55(3)&(4) says

“(3) The payer may withdraw its consent to a payment transaction at any time before the point at which the payment order can no longer be revoked … (4) …the payer may withdraw its consent to the execution of a series of payment transactions at any time with the effect that any future payment transactions are not regarded as authorised for the purposes of this Part. “

Regulation 61 makes it clear that where a payment was not authorised the “provider must immediately— (a) refund the amount of the unauthorised payment transaction to the payer;

And must also (b)… restore the debited payment account to the state it would have been in had the unauthorised payment transaction not taken place.”

In other words it has to refund any penalties that have been incurred.

The time limit for a refund is set down in regulation 59 which says the customer

“59(1)…is entitled to redress under regulation 61…only if it notifies the payment service provider without undue delay, and in any event no later than 13 months after the debit date, on becoming aware of any unauthorised or incorrectly executed payment transaction.”

However 59(2) states that the 13 month limit may be waived if the provider has not given the relevant information to the customer. That information is set down in Part 5 of the Regulations.

The FSA guidance

The Financial Services Authority has issued guidance on how the Regulations should be implemented. Its latest published version is dated January 2012. http://www.fsa.gov.uk/static/pubs/other/psd_approach_jan12.pdf Although this document makes it clear that the customer has the right to withdraw a payment at any time before it is made it does, confusingly, state that “best practice” is “for the customer to be advised that notice of the withdrawal of consent be given to the payee [merchant].”

Some banks and card providers have taken that to mean that the customer had to do that before the payment would be revoked.

But the latest draft version of the guidance dated May 2012 http://www.fsa.gov.uk/static/pubs/other/draft-psd-apr12.pdf makes it clear

“with reference to the customer’s right to withdraw consent for a series of payment transactions, clarification that it is not acceptable for the payment service provider to make withdrawal of consent dependent on notice having been given to the merchant.”

And paragraph 8.132 (p79) now reads

“However, it is best practice for the customer to be advised that notice of the withdrawal of consent should also be given to the payee, because the PSRs. [Payment Services Regulations] do not address the payer’s underlying liability under the terms of any contract they have signed. For the avoidance of doubt, it is not acceptable for the payment service provider to make withdrawal of consent dependent on notice having been given to the merchant.”

And this clearer guidance is reflected in the information given to customers on p.15 of this document www.fsa.gov.uk/static/pubs/consumer_info/know_your_rights_guide.pdf

"Cancelling a regular card payment.

When you give your credit or debit card details to a company and authorise them to take regular payments from your account, such as for a gym membership or magazine subscription, it is known as a ‘recurring transaction’ or ‘continuous payment authority’.

These are often confused with direct debits, but do not offer the same guarantee if the amount or date of the payment changes.

In most cases, regular payments can be cancelled by telling the company taking the payments. However, you have the right to cancel them directly with your bank or card issuer by telling it that you have stopped permission for the payments. Your bank or card issuer must then stop them – it has no right to insist that you agree this first with the company taking the payments.

Be aware, though, that you will still be responsible for paying any money that you owe."

Conclusion

Although the banks and card providers claim to have relied on earlier FSA advice they have a duty themselves to obey the law which is clear. You can cancel a continuous payment authority on a debit or credit card simply by telling your bank or card provider.

http://paullewismoney.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/continuous-payments-racket.html

If the bank or card provider refuses to do so, or fails to do so after eight weeks, you can take your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk or call 0800 023 4567 from a landline or 0300 123 9 123 from a monthly contract mobile. The fos will most likely take your side in the dispute.

Just two nit picking things. "the fos will most likely......" the fos has no choice but to comply with the law.

Why a "monthly contract mobile"? Are you saying you can't ring that number from a PAYG mobile?

So what happens if you cancel the automatic payments with regards to interest and charges?

You dictate the amount you will pay each month based on what you can afford.

Yeah i understand that, but the interest is over £100 a month and their website talks of excessive charges... can they keep adding these costs on or not is what i mean?

Also, am i to assume the bank has to action my request to cancel the automatic payments instantly?

Penalty charges cannot be legally enforced, so pay what you owe and then stop - ignoring any further claims.

Great news, and what about it being instant? only a payment is due on wednesday

The second you request it, the bank must comply. As stated above, if they refuse, or ANY money gets deducted after your request, or you go overdrawn, the bank must refund ALL money in full, remove all overdraft charges, and return the account back to the status it was before any of it happened. You can get teh FOS involved as well, who will back up you and deal with them. You can also get the FSA involved. When you do all this, you can even go to the press and give the banks a bad name, as you now have two government agencies backing you up.