Ladies & Gentlemen

Are you sitting comfortably? Then I will begin

Like everyone else, I have been bombarded by spam emails, radio & TV adverts & even SMS to my personal mobile phone all shouting "WE COULD GET YOU THOUSANDS"

Being quite a cynical person, I had ignored them all over the last couple of months. (even though I had been shafted on PPI quite a few years ago). However, a couple of hours ago, as my mouse was travelling over to the 'DELETE EMAIL' icon, my eyes caught this:

In April, the courts ruled that over the last 10 years banks have mis-sold an expensive financial product called Payment Protection Insurance (PPI).

10 years jumped out at me. It was January 2004 that I received the shafting!

Please bear with me while I put a bit of 'meat on the bones'

The event time line is as follows:

July 2003

Me & Mrs 10hands, desperately needed a loan to repair several windows that were dropping out and I had to replace my £800 car that was on its last legs. As we both still had a couple of small loans already, we had the idea that we would wrap everything up into one loan, one payment. So we applied for one of these internet loans (not through a high street bank). Total amount we were looking to borrow was £17000

After doing the usual enquiry over the phone, the loan company had picked up, from their credit checks that there was a second home improvement mortgage that we could also wrap up into this loan. OK we thought, the APR of the loan we were after was around the same value as the 2nd Mortgage, so the Loan value we were now on was £24000.

Then came the hard sell… "Mr 10hands, is there anything else on the DIY front you would be looking to do in the next year or two?" We were asked. Oh how foolish we were. "Yes" I said, "we will probably need a new boiler in a year or so and I suppose we could replace ALL the doors and windows and not just the ones that are falling out." We were stupid and quite frankly intoxicated by the possibilities of what we could do with all that money. Bring the house up to scratch, get a decent car (maybe even spend up to 4 or 5 grand) and have a little by for a “rainy day” as the sales woman had said. The loan value was now up to £35,000, repayable over 20 years.

And then came the PPI….

“We can do you a special deal on PPI” she said. “Although on this loan, the PPI would cost you £10,150, if you do not make a claim on the PPI, we will give you £10,000 back after 10 years. Not to difficult to do the maths, Payment Protection for essentially £150. OK we said, we will do it.

The paperwork came through and we scanned the figures, saw the monthly repayment of £389.19 and signed the dotted line. Did we read the small print? Did we hell. And I am STILL kicking myself to this day for not doing this. It didn’t even click at the time that the PPI value was added to the loan amount and we would be paying interest on it! So the ‘actual amount borrowed’ was £45,150 (all from a couple of bloody windows!). Our 1st payment back started in the August 2003

June 2004

My dear mum passed away and as she had savings and a house there was a total of about £140k (after the sale of the house) to be split between me any my sister. So after all the solicitors fees etc etc, I had about £68k. More than enough I thought to settle this loan off AND move up to a 3 bedroom house (As there was me, Mrs 10hands & 20 little fat fingers – 2 girls – all crammed into a 2 bedroom semi)

November 2004

After a few months selling my mums house, we finally had access to the funds and rang the loan company up for a settlement figure. “No problem, we will send it you in the post”

So bearing in mind the original loan amount was £45,100 and we had paid off 15 months at £389.19 (total £5837.85) we were given the settlement figure of….

£44,943.92

So in effect, the £5837 we had paid off only reduced the loan amount by £156. This had to be a mistake, so I rang them up.

They stated that it was a direct result of the PPI as the rebate of this was very low due to there being a higher risk in the early years. I argued that they are clearly having a giraffe as 15 months into a 20 year loan didn’t equate to the rebate of the PPI they were offering. “Oh no Mr 10hands” they said. “The PPI only covers the first 5 years of the 20 year loan”…. I was stunned. “Its all in the small print Mr 10hands”.

And sure enough, in the mass of paperwork small print with characters less than 1mm tall…

“If your agreement is for a term more than 60 months this insurance will cease on the date that your 60th monthly repayment becomes due.”

I cant tell you how much I wanted to throw myself down the stairs. I popped back to see the solicitor dealing with my mums estate and even she said that there is not likely anything can be done as we had it in the small print. In my opinion, 5 year cover on a 20 year loan is about as reassuring as a chocolate teapot!

I even at the time posted in a comment on the Daily Mail website and was contacted by one of their writers from their sister news site ‘this is money’ who run a brief story as a warning to others.

In January 2005 (after a couple more monthly payments) I finally wrote them a cheque on a final settlement figure of £44,211.30.

We did eventually move to a 3 bedroom semi in December 2005, although it was obviously a lower value as I had anticipated in spending. During this move I had thrown out all the paperwork relating to this sad affair. However. After tracking down and plugging in a hard drive from an old computer, I have recovered account numbers, contact addresses and details of final payments made (but nothing in writing from them)

As this is one of my favourite websites for reading various David –vs- Goliath stories I suspect the first thing I should do is fire off a subject access request. Would you agree?

Plus can anyone clarify what elements of PPI have been deemed ‘re-claimable’ and on what basis.

My arguments have always been that during the loan application process, everything was done over the phone, and I am damn sure that at no point in time were we told that the PPI would only cover the first 5 years of a 20 year loan as I would have declined.

In addition, I can recall (but cannot produce a copy) that the settlement figure letter showed no breakdown of what went against the loan, what went towards the PPI and what (if any) was against an early redemption fee.

I don’t at this stage want to divulge the loan company as I am sure that they trawl these websites and don’t want to arm anyone. Whilst I know there are many PPI reclaim outfits out there. Why should I pay anyone to do something I could do.

I am guessing that there could be a value in excess of £9000 + interest.

Whilst I cannot defend against my stupidity of the 5 year cover (I will have it etched on my gravestone - "Read the bloody small print"). I do feel that the rebate amount for the PPI I did receive was quite frankly, taking the pee.

I would be most grateful for your thoughts

Hi

Yep, first thing is a SAR.

Also have a read of No.1 in my signature and there are spreadsies at the end which will help you work out the claim amount.

Pop along to the fos website and download their consumer questionnaire ready for completion. While you are there, have a read of some of the case study PDFs

ims

Thanks ims for your rapid response.

Have read through your signature link and the task of claiming back now appears less daunting

I will of course update as I go along.

Just a quick thought... If the original loan was taken out in joint names then would the SAR request have to be signed by both original applicants as well?

If poss, yes.....it will speed things up and gives them less chance of coming back with an objection.

ims

SAR sent recorded delivery today. Now sit back & wait.

Update....

OK SAR has been responded to BUT I think some information is missing.

First of all the company name is Paragon and I have read many threads on them here.

There was a broker involved at the first point of contact. This was "easy-loans dot co dot uk"

Nearly identical SAR response as shown in this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?188356-Paragon-Ppi-Insurance&highlight=easy-loans (post number 13)

What they have sent me is:

• Covering letter as described as above
  
• Statement of account (between commencement in 2003 to settlement in 2005)
  
• Signed copy of application form with easy-loans
  
• Signed copy of unregulated credit agreement from Paragon
  
• Signed copy of legal charge on property
  
• Copy of mine and other halfs submitted payslips
  
• Appendix 1 Standard print-out 'list of recipients'
  
• Appendix 2 Standard print-out Credit reference agencies
  
• Appendix 3 Standard print-out 'Fraud prevention schemes'
  

What I believe should have been included:

• PPI Insurance policy
  
• PPI refund certificate (if no claim in first 10 years of claim you get a sum back)
  
• PPI Insurance terms and conditions (inclusions / exclusions)
  
• Copys of the letters of complaint that I wrote when I was given such a high settlement figure)
  
• Copys of letters giving the 'This is money's' financial editor access to my data
  
• Audio transcripts of the loan enquiry INCLUDING the sales techniques used to sell us the PPI
  

I would consider the last one the most important as this would form the backbone of my PPI mis-selling claim as I absolutely maintain that at no point was I made aware that the PPI cost of £10,150 would only provide insurance cover for the first 5 years of a 20 year loan as it would not of been fit for purpose. Even the small print that was hidden away in the T&C didnt jump out as obvious. There was no other discussions with regards to the sales agents on what they should have asked me or informed me. It was simply sold on the basis that if we didnt make a claim, then after 10 years we would get £10,000 back of the £10,150 cost. To be honest I thought this was a bargain, so I said yes up front. But didnt realise that it only covers 5 years, and wasnt made aware that we would in fact be paying interest on this amount.

The more I think about this. The more I am bloody determined to get this back.

What do you reckon my next step(s) should be?

Many thanks

Hi

You can do a failed SAR letter if you wish but as you now have the agreement and the statements of account you have enough to be able to prepare a claim amount.

I think you've read the article in my signature and if so you will probably have downloaded the spreadsheet at the end?

ims

Yes I have the spreadsheet already, many thanks. Am going to have a go a tackling that in the morning. As for the audio transcripts, I am guessing that Paragon will not have a copy of these as these would possibly be with Easy-loans (who I understand are no longer trading). I'm further guessing that Paragon will follow suit like they have with others on here and say its nothing to do with them, speak to your broker etc... but will follow previous guidance and target Paragon anyway.

Another thing I had also noticed is that we had a not too bad interest rate on start up of 7.7% but this went up to 8.2% after 9 months then up to 8.7% another 4 months later. I can't recall if I had received notifications of these (but will presume I must have). However, I would of thought that these notifications too should have been submitted with the SAR request.

Will post up again when I have done the Spreadie.

There has been a success recently with Paragon where they coughed up

ims

OK Done the spreadsheet, total of all charges including the 8% interest rate comes to £19.586.35. However, I need to take 2x rebate values off as the loan was settled on the 13-01-05 and it shows an insurance rebate of £1,146.45, then a second rebate when I kicked off of £1000 on the 27/01/05. Have entered these into the spreadsheet as a 'minus' figure, but the statutory interest column remained blank. So If the total rebate value is £2146.45, (and I left this as a 'PLUS' amount, the 8% statutory interest value comes out at £1189.78 from date of loan settlement to today. So if I am correct I would put in a claim for....

£19,586.35

Less the rebate value of.....£2,146.45

Less the Statutory 8% of the above amount.....£1,189.78

Leaving a total claim value of....£16,251.12

Would you agree? Many thanks in advance

Not quite I think.

You don't enter rebates into the spreadsheet and you don't work out "negative" interest on the rebates.

As you settled the loan early, you need to work out what the overpayment of ppi was at the date of settlement.

This was single premium ppi put on to the loan at the start wasn't it?

ims

It was indeed a pre-loaded at the start value of £10,150. (joint PP cover + joint life cover). So in total there is the £10,150 up front premium and according to the spreadsheet, a total of £1608.01 in interest on the PPI alone (excluding the 8% statutory interest) between the start date and the date it was settled. (duration 18 months and 2 weeks). Money out of my pocket so to speak was £11,758.01 (again excluding the 8% interest). Then came the rebate of £2146.45.

The spreadsheet says total statutory interest of £7828.34. but I am presuming that this value doesnt take into consideration the £2146.45 rebate. What I am trying to say is that obiously I cannot claim statutory interest on the £2146.45 rebate and I'm trying to get my head around how (and if) the spreadsheet has factored this in.

Hope this makes sense to you as my eyes are starting to glaze over!

OK

easiest thing is for you to post up the agreement as a PDF file (MINUS ALL PERSONAL INFORMATION) and I'll take a look at it.

Failing that, type up all the figures from the agreement.

ims

OK Have attached the single page unregulated credit agreement and the 2 pages of the full statement in PDF

And the StatIntSheet spreadsheet.

I had calculated the repayment PPI percentage at 22.48% which is what I had based the 'Amount of charge' figures on

Hopefully you should be able to read them

Once again, many thanks for your assistance! I bet the banks have a voodoo doll with your name on it!

Unregulated Credit Agreement.pdf

Statement page 2.pdf

Statement page 1.pdf

StatIntSheet(1).xls

Hi

OK you've slipped up here.

You're right that the percentage is 22.48%.

You need to remove the entry of £10,150 from the spreadsheet.

The list of payments needs changing too. When your payments were 362.07pm then 22.48% of each of those was going to the ppi part of the loan and that amount is £81.39. When the payment amounts changed, you still use 22.48% of each of the new repayments. This is what your list should be made up of.

Your balance at redemption before they did any adjustment for rebates was £45,596.14 and so 22.48% of this balance was the ppi part of the loan. this equates to a figure of £10,250.01. You received rebates totalling £2,146.45, so take those rebates from the £10,250.01 and you get a figure of £8,103.56. Enter that figure as the final entry in your list. This £8k is effectively the amount you overpaid on the insurance at settlement.

You will then have a total figure at the top of the spreadsheet and this is your claim amount. It will be made up of the premium in total, the interest the bank charged you on that part of the loan and the 8% statutory interest but minus the rebates you received.

Post up the revised spreadie when you've done it.

Regards

ims

OK, How does this look?

My next question is on what basis would I be claiming mis-selling for as I am trying to seperate what I can and cant recall for definate. Eg, Im absolutely sure that at no point in time was it explained that the insurance was only for the first five years of the 20 year loan as the first time I became aware of this fact was when I had asked for a settlement figure 18 months after taking the loan / PPI out.

Also, it wasnt explained that this £10,150 would acrue interest and in effect it would have cost considerably more than this over the duration of the loan. If I had known about these 2 points at the start I would have declined.

What I cant be absolutely sure of is if they had stated that I MUST have PPI. I think they did, but without voice transcripts, I cannot recall for definate. Obviously I dont want to state this as one of my reasons for claiming and they conjour up the voice transcripts, at a later date in a court, that would reflect that this wasnt the case.

Your thoughts again would be greatly appreciated.

StatIntSheet(1).xls

Hi

Reasons for mis-selling are available here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?61081-PPI-Some-Notes-for-Claimants..

Your spreadsheet is fine apart from two things.

1. The narrative should be "PPI Payment" and not "Interest".

2. You have changed the claim date to 27/1/05....it should be right up to today.

Gos to the fos website and download the consumer questionnaire and complete it. Send a copy of the completed questionnaire and the spreadsheet to the lender together with a covering letter. As far as the mis-sale reasons are concerned, there are usually 3 or more that fit each case. Just be truthful with your answers.

I'd recommend some reading around the PPI forum threads to get familiar with things

ims

Many thanks for your time ims21, you are a star! I will post back when I have more

First of all, Happy New Year to everyone on here. Lets make 2012 the year where the little guy stops getting shafted by banks and big corporations! For a couple of years I have been reading the many varied 'David & Goliath' threads here and I can't tell you how much I have learned. This site has been priceless in bringing knowledge and understanding to the masses and the many contributors and site team people should feel very proud of themselves. Its not just you guys sharing your knowledge, it about you giving up your personal time to help others. So deepest thanks to all of you.

Just to give you an update on this thread.....

I had posted my claim letter, complete with spreadsheet and FOS questionaire on the 23rd December (1st class recorded) and judging by the speed of response, (received the 30th December), I have received a standard template bogoff letter stating that as your broker arranged the PPI it was nothing to do with us blah, blah, and can consider this their final response. (i.e you need to claim off them, who they acknowledge, are no longer trading)

Although previous similar advice on other threads points to directing claims at the FSCS in these circumstances, my claim of unfairness letter focused on 2 main points. 1st of all was the mis-selling of the policy itself, but secondly was the appalling rebate value returned to me by Paragon.

By a strange twist of fate (maybe), in their bogoff letter, they state that "as the loan was completed before the 14th Jan 2005, the sale of the insurance was not regulated by the FSA". The settlement cheque was cashed on the 13th January 2005. Although after my complaint, there was an additional £1000 rebate of the PPI on the 27th January 2005.

My question is where next? As I had already complained to Paragon back in 2004 about the level of rebate (£2146 rebate, after complaining out of £10150 for just 18 months cover). Would you suggest that I go after Paragon via the FOS for this, as I has always believed that the rebate value was totally unfair, then try the FSCS for the balance?

Thanks again in advance for your thoughts.

Hi

I would start by ringing fos after the holidays and give them an outline of your case. You may find that they will take on the case. See what they say

ims

What address do you have for Paragon, found some paperwork from them on a loan that was fully repaid - and there is the magic PPI on the letter, I even have the account no and proof of when it was fully repaid - long before the loan period finished.

Didn't even know I had PPI until I found the breakdown of what was paid off by this consolidation loan....

The address I have is:

Paragon Personal Finance Ltd

St Catherine's court

Herbert Road,

Solihull

West Midlands

B91 3QE