Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #1

    Default Alliance & Leicester Mortgage ** WON **

    I took out a mortgageicon with Alliance & Leicester in 1981 and remained with them until I paid it off in 2003.
    During that time I had many personal problems which, coupled with their often intransigent attitude, resulted in many adminicon and arrears charges, together with astronomical Legal charges, incurred on the five separate occasions when they tried (unsuccessfully) to repossess my home.

    So...... on the 22nd February, I sent them the Library letter and DPA request, asking for my money back and a list detailing all the charges, going back six years.

    This morning I received a letter from Chris Baker, Team Manager, Collections Dept, Narborough:

    "Although I am mindful of the exhaustive research you have undertaken into case law (NOT ME! Stephen, Bankfodder, Dave et al, to whom I will be eternally grateful) in order to challenge the Alliance & Leicester charging policy, I am comfortable that as far as the arrears charges are concerned we have acted within the law. I draw your attention to mortgageicon condition 18.1 enclosed, which confirms our right to charge expenses incurred in recovering any monies owed.
    I enclose a statement showing all arrears levied to your account since 1999 as requested."

    Enclosed were several A4 sheets headed "Mortgage Statement", but which were unlike any Mortgage Statement I had ever received.
    They dated back to 1991, and, although Legal Charges were highlighted in yellow,there was NO mention of Arrears or adminicon fees. Neither was there any reference to the mortgage balance, just, on each line, a balance showing the amount in credit or, more usually, arrears. At the end of the last sheet was the footnote:

    "Please note that charges are added to the mortgage balance and are NOT arrears bearing. Any charges applied to your account will be shown on your annual mortgage statement."

    It took me quite a while to work this out, but, when I had, I telephoned the contact number at the beginning of this forum. Unfortunately this was for A & L credit cards, But the kind lady I spoke to put me through to the 0870 number I had been given.
    I spoke to a young lady called Helena, who sounded quite fed-up. I explained that I intended to claim back all the charges applied to my account, between 1999 and 2003, with the exception of the Legal Charges, which I might pursue at a later date, and that I had requested, under the DPA, a list of these charges, which had not been sent to me.
    Helena pointed out Chris Baker's comment that the charges were correct. I told her that unless Mr Baker was a legal expert, then it was merely his opinion, and that I was quite happy to let the county courticon decide whether the charges were lawful, or not.
    Furthermore, I told her that she had until the 5th April to provide the information I had requested, or I would be issuing Court papers for a "near estimate" of the sum owed, and inform the Court of A&L's inability to furnish information, despite my DPA request, enabling me to claim an accurate amount. ( Fortunately, I do have my own Mortgage Statement for 2002, which shows charges amounting to £474.00. According to Stephen's formula, this would make a total, in excess of £2000.00.)
    She told me she would make sure the information, I needed would be sent off as soon as possible. I'm not going to hold my breath.

    I'll let you know what happens next.

    Similar Threads:
    Phil
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    Hi Phillip

    All the best with your action. I am trying to reclaim money from our mortgageicon company (Bristol & West), and am amazed at the arrogant way they operate. First letter sent 16th January with a complaint and threat to go to the Ombudsmanicon has been totally ignored - DPA request sent more than a week ago has also failed to even gleen an acknowledgement as yet.

    Anyway, look forward to seeing your progress.

    Alan, Derby, UK.



    PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING
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    _________________________ _______

    Sorry, but I cannot deal with your case by PM - please ask questions in your own thread. If you do not get a reply within 48 hours send a PM, with a link to the relevant thread, to any Site Team Member.

    DO NOT SEND QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR CLAIM TO ADMIN, or our WEBMASTER - YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE A REPLY.

    Advice given is purely my opinion, and is not based on any legal training.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    received a lettericon, this morning, from Pam Green, Customer Relations Manager, Collections Dept., together with a list of charges going back six years.

    She reiterates the bank's position, that the charges are in accordance with their policy and the terms and conditions and will not be refunded.

    The list of charges is split into three parts: 1. Legal Costs 2. RDicon Cheque Charges
    3. Letter Charges.
    Fortunately, I do have an annual statement from 2002, and so have been able to check the accuracy of their list.

    An item on my statement, dated 27th September, shows an arrears fee of £99.00, which did not appear on their list of charges.

    Accordingly, I telephoned Ms Green, who told me that this charge was actually incorporated in the list of Legal Costs and split into two charges, one for £85.00 and the other for £14.00. A similar thing had happened in December 2001.

    I told her that since these amounts were shown on my annual statement as "arrears fees", I would be considering them as such, and that they would be incorporated into my claim for re-imbursement, the total of which comes to £858.00 plus interest.

    Whether this was an attempt at damage limitation, obfuscation, or just a mistake, I do not know, but it may be worth other people, with claims concerning mortgageicon penalty charges, being made aware of.

    Phil
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    That is not on - you asked for a complete list of transactions and charges, they have no right to provide you with an abridged list. I would write back reiterating what you asked for - along with a reminder of the number of days remaining for compliance. Add this line at the end:

    Should there be any further attempts to delay compliance, I will be left with no alternative but to escalate this matter into an official complaint to the Information Commissioner and/or the county courticon under s.7 and/or s.13 Data Protection Act

    Send by recorded delivery to Pam Green. Keep us posted.

    Alan, Derby, UK.



    PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING
    EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS





    _________________________ _______

    Sorry, but I cannot deal with your case by PM - please ask questions in your own thread. If you do not get a reply within 48 hours send a PM, with a link to the relevant thread, to any Site Team Member.

    DO NOT SEND QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR CLAIM TO ADMIN, or our WEBMASTER - YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE A REPLY.

    Advice given is purely my opinion, and is not based on any legal training.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    Quote Originally Posted by alanfromderby
    That is not on - you asked for a complete list of transactions and charges, they have no right to provide you with an abridged list. I would write back reiterating what you asked for - along with a reminder of the number of days remaining for compliance. Add this line at the end:

    Should there be any further attempts to delay compliance, I will be left with no alternative but to escalate this matter into an official complaint to the Information Commissioner and/or the county courticon under s.7 and/or s.13 Data Protection Act

    Send by recorded delivery to Pam Green. Keep us posted.
    Hi Alan

    Prepared a letter to post to Ms Green along the lines you've suggested (thanks for the great quote), and also asking for the list of charges to be taken back as far as their records allow, bearing in mind the mortgageicon was taken out in 1981.

    Since, until now, I haven't been asked for, or paid, the £10.00 fee, I'll send that as well!

    Thanks, once again,

    Phil
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    Dear All,

    Sorry for the abscence. Been too busy chasing Capital One and MBNA (succesfully!!!).
    Received the following snotty letter from Pam Green in response to my lbaicon :

    Dear Mr Hindley,

    The administrative "charges" made to your account are in accordance with the terms and conditions of the mortgage.

    I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time the mortgage was advanced. The basic requirement that you were expected to adhere to, in the conditions of the loan, was to make payments each and every month.

    You breached the terms and conditions by failing to honour the contract upon which the mortgage was advanced. You consistently failed to make monthly payments. The payments were not necessarily late, not paid for only the odd month or the occasional month or even less than the amount required. You simply did not pay and for periods at a time.

    I am frankly shocked that you consider your default in payment to be satisfactory and our action to recover the debt, to be outside the terms and conditions of the mortgage and the law.

    The charges made for the action taken for over 21 years in order to try and establish regular payments and to urge you to comply with the conditions of the mortgage will not be refunded.

    Yours sincerely
    Pam Green


    It seems to me Ms Green is getting a tad tetchy!!!

    Accordingly, I started my claim today with moneyclaimicon and will send her the following letter, tomorrow. Hopefully both will arrive on her desk on Monday morning.




    Ms Pam Green,
    Customer Relations Manager,
    Collections Dept,
    Alliance and Leicester PLC
    Customer Services Centre
    Narborough,
    Leicester
    LE19 0AL
    30th June 2006



    Dear Ms Green

    MORTGAGE ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Thank you for taking the time and trouble to reply to my letter of 31st May 2006. I realise this must be a busy time for you with lots of customers’ accounts to close.

    Fortunately, I am not in a position to be threatened in this way, having fully discharged my indebtedness to the Alliance & Leicester more than three years ago.

    You, on the other hand, Ms Green, as a representative of your bank, have a legal obligation to refund the unlawful penalty charges extortionately and arbitrarily added to my account over the years.

    I had hoped that you had read and understood my previous correspondence, or, at least sought the advice of a colleague in your legal dept. Since this is clearly not so, and at the risk of boring you, I will quote verbatim from my first letter:


    It is my opinion, and that of the Office of Fair Trading, that these charges are punitive in nature, not a genuine pre-estimate of cost and not intended to re-imburse your losses for a breach of contract occurring. Further to the 1999 consumer crediticon Regulations quoted by the OFT, there are numerous cases in law that prove that punitive charges in contracts are unenforceable at English Law.


    Murray v Leisureplay (2004)
    Dunlop Tyre Company v New Garage and Motor Co. (1915)
    Bridge v Campbell Discount Co. Ltd. (1962)

    Further to these cases, I also believe these charges to be a direct breach of the Unfair Contracts Terms Act, 1977, which require that contract terms are reasonable. I do not believe these charges are reasonable as outlined in the aforementioned Act.


    I do not deny that I have been guilty of breaches of the terms and conditions of your contract. To make my point absolutely clear, and for your benefit, any charges which do not reflect a genuine pre-estimate of the costs incurred by that breach are penalty charges and therefore unenforceable. I am still waiting for you to provide me with a breakdown of the costs involved in sending me an arrears letter or notice of a returned cheque.

    It is also true that I agreed to your terms and conditions at the time the mortgage was advanced. As a point of law, however, if those terms and conditions contain elements that are unlawful, then the contract, itself, is not worth the paper it is written on. As I mentioned in my previous letter, I expected, as a matter of course, the bank to conduct its business in a legitimate and legal manner. In my naivety I had trusted the Alliance & Leicester to be familiar with their legal obligations, to act within them and, to quote the Banking Codeicon: “consider cases of financial difficulty sympathetically and positively.” To continually charge disproportionate penalty fees and astronomical legal fees (which, at this moment in time, I am not disputing) to an account that was clearly in difficulty, seems to me a blatant abuse of the bank’s power and authority.

    I do not intend to go into the history of my mortgage account at this time; the fact that when I sought a re-mortgage in 1987 it took eighteen months for the funds to be made available, and only then as a further advance with a one and a half per cent interest premium; the numerous occasions when I was refused the opportunity to absorb the arrears into a new mortgage, thus keeping me tied into a disproportionately high interest rate and making it impossible to re-mortgage with other lenders; the hectoring and bullying letters which reduced my partner to tears and me to despair.

    The tone of your letter has brought back many memories and made me all the more determined to see my claim through to a satisfactory conclusion, (satisfactory to me, that is.)

    I resent your offhand and untruthful reference to default in payment. Let me once again remind you that any debt I had with your bank has been fully discharged at a more than advantageous rate to yourselves, voluntarily and not under legal judgement or by means of re-possession. The amount repaid includes your unlawful fees and the interest charged upon them.

    It will be interesting to see if your indebtedness to me is repaid in a similar fashion.

    You conclude your letter by reminding me that I held my account with you for twenty-one years. Do you seriously believe that the Alliance & Leicester would have allowed this to happen had they not received considerable pecuniary advantage in doing so?

    In conclusion, since the deadline I set for re-imbursement in my previous letter has now passed, I have today initiated my claim against you in the county courticon.

    I am seeking a judgement in my favour for a total sum of £1,622.57, this figure to include statutory interest at 8% up to today’s date, and also my court costs.

    If you do not fully understand the implications of this, then you should seek advice from someone familiar with legal matters or better versed than yourself in Customer Relations.


    I remain,
    Yours sincerely,

    Phil
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    Pam Green never did reply to my letter of 30th June.

    However, on 18th July, Jackie McGuirk, from A&L's Group Legal Services, filed an acknowledgement with the Court.

    This gave them until the 3rd August to file a defenceicon.

    NOTHING HAPPENED!

    I telephoned the court on the following day to check if they'd received any last minute communication from A&L.

    As always, they were courteous and helpful and, having acertained that no defence had been received, advised me that there was nothing to prevent me requesting a judgement in my favour.

    This I did, asking for payment to be made immediately. The judgement was validated later that day.

    I would love to be there when the judgement is served on them, only wishing that it could be received, personally, by the aforementioned Ms Green.

    I assume this means that I've won.

    I'll let everyone know when I receive a cheque, or, alternatively, send the bailiffs in!!

    Phil
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    all the best Phil-you'll get your money!!


  9. #9

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    Wooooaaaahhhhhh!!!

    Get the bailiffs in


    Please note that I am not a legal expert and all advice given is without prejudice and is purely my opinion only.


    ** Nationwide - £1821.15-PAID IN FULL - Aug 06 **

    ** Halifax Mortgage -£390 - PAID IN FULL - Nov 06 **
    Lloyds TSB - MCOL issued 09/03/07 - £2953 + costs - ON HOLD....






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  10. #10

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    Received a cheque for the full amount of my claim this morning, from J A McGuirk, Solicitor, Litigation Team. (they've gone all formal now that they've lost.)

    Of course, "this decision should not be regarded as an admission of liability on the part of the Company, as we consider the charges to be fair and reasonable."

    Presumably, they like giving money away that they don't need to!

    They go on to to threaten, "as it is clear you do not accept the terms and conditions for the operation of your account we will shortly be contacting you to discuss its future operation."

    Oh Horrors!!!!!!!!!!

    They're going to close my account!!!!!!!!!

    Wait a minute, I haven't had an account with A&L for more than three years, which, had they actually read any of my correspondence, they would know.

    Which just goes to prove that they inhabit a culture of threats and bullying, and have no interest in dealing with their customers as individuals.

    The knee-jerk reaction is always the same: "We are an omnipotent Bank! We are always right! Go away!"

    Once again thanks to everyone at CAGicon for the support. A donationicon will follow when the cheque clears.

    PS Shame about the Bailiffs!!

    Phil
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    By the way, I forgot to mention that the amount repaid included charges dating back to 1995.
    Also, the charges which, on my original statements had been shown as arrears charges, but which, following my DPA request, they had tried to pass off as "legal costs", were repaid as well.

    Perhaps this is further evidence that they don't bother to assess each case properly, and, having tried every avenue to fob you off, they just pay out because they know they will have to anyway!

    Phil
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    Here's my acceptance letter to A&L:



    Ms J A McGuirk,
    Solicitor,
    Litigation Team
    Alliance and Leicester PLC
    customer servicesicon Centre
    Narborough,
    Leicester
    LE19 0AL 8th August 2006


    Dear Ms McGuirk,

    mortgageicon ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Thank you for your letter of 4th August, together with your cheque for £1,630.16.

    I can confirm that I am happy to accept this sum in full and final settlement of my present claim, which, as you are no doubt aware, resulted in a judgement being made by the Court, in my favour.

    As it is clear that, without the imposition of unlawful and punitive penalty charges, the Alliance & Leicester is unable to operate on a commercial basis, nor do you seem able to follow the principles of the Office of Fair Trading or the Banking Codeicon, I should point out that it gave me great pleasure to redeem my mortgageicon with your company, in full, in March 2003.

    It will therefore not be necessary for you to contact me to discuss the future operation of my account.



    Yours sincerely



    Philip Hindley

    cc. Northampton county courticon, 21-27, St Katherine’s Street, Northampton, NN1 2LH

    Phil
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    Fantastic news - very pleased for you. Enjoy it


    Please note that I am not a legal expert and all advice given is without prejudice and is purely my opinion only.


    ** Nationwide - £1821.15-PAID IN FULL - Aug 06 **

    ** Halifax Mortgage -£390 - PAID IN FULL - Nov 06 **
    Lloyds TSB - MCOL issued 09/03/07 - £2953 + costs - ON HOLD....






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  14. #14

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    ive just read all this thread. your reply letter was amazing congratulations on your win.


  15. #15

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage

    Very helpful thread, thank you Philip

    Reading your post about the misery they put you through, threats of repossession etc brought it all back to me as well. I've just sent off for charges for last 12 years with xxxxx. I had similar bleak spell in 1997 and hopefully with the info on this site i'll be able to give them a kick in the cojones, especially the liitle sh** who refused a building society cheque for arrears and made me walk two miles back to a branch to get the cash.


  16. #16

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage ** WON **

    I have just joined this group having found it via the Mail on Sundays campaign regarding mortgageicon exit fees.We paid £195 July 2006 to clear our mortgageicon with them and have now sent the standard letter printed in The Mail Feb 4th 2007, asking for a refund of that amount less £35 deemed to be the realistic cost.
    Our further interest is with fees levied on the mortgage account for late payments.
    My husband took out a mortgage in 1964, and then a second mortgage with them.His 1st wife left him in 1990 with mortgage arrears and the usual hassle ensued for him.By the time we got together in 1992 he seemed to be having a letter a week from the Alliance & Leicester.Though both of us worked it was hard going to pull things around but he always paid the mortgage sometimes 3 months late but always caught up.
    At the time we ranted about the fees but always felt powerless.It was with great delight that we paid them off last year when he retired, but these people made a lot of money out of us and we endured the hassle.
    I have read all of Philip Hindleys posts and it has amazed me, you can fight back, and they are wrong as we felt all along .This morning have added up our charges from statements. These are the ones that i have to hand.

    1998-2005 ( 1 year missing)

    Listed as arrears charges...£2761. total
    Listed as sundry charges...£255 total
    Listed as legal charges......£139.62.tota l

    A wopping £3155. over 6 yearsicon. Our total to pay off the mortgage was only £7269.

    We have always been angry about the charges but felt we had no options and when your working you just don`t have the time to do a lot about anything.Now we are retired and my husband is in poor health after a lifetime of working and paying his way in life ive got the time to have a go.

    Any help advice on what to do next please.

    Regards Sybil


  17. #17

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage ** WON **

    Hi Sybil!

    Welcome to the site! There are lots of friendly people here who will always be glad to offer help and advice. Never be afraid to ask.

    Your story brought back lots of memories.

    I think we have all been in the position of being made to feel guilty, inadequate and alone, through the intransigence and bullying of one or other of the Banks.

    Sometimes it is caused by our own financial incompetence, sometimes by unfortunate circumstances, but always, it seems to me, that problems are compounded by the greed of the Banks in never missing an opportunity to impose charges and kick a man when he is down.

    That is how it has been for years.

    Like you, finding this site made me feel like St Paul on the road to Damascus! Talk about a revelation! Even now, my dear lady wife (who is as honest and straightforward as the day is long) finds it hard to comprehend that Financial Institutions, in whom we place such implicit trust, can behave in such a selfish and unlawful manner, and get away with it.

    Now then, Sybil, for you and your husband it is payback time!

    As you have seen from my thread, all the charges A&L imposed unlawfully, are yours to reclaim. It is YOUR money. They won't make it easy, but for the sake of a few hours of study on your part, plus writing a few letters, the end result, both in financial terms and in the return of self-esteem will be immeasureable.

    First of all read the FAQs!

    Be aware that there is a slight possibility that your claim might end up in Court. It is extremely unlikely. From the thousands of people who have made claims against the Banks, no more than a handful have had to get any closer to a Court of Law than their PC. Nevertheless, as long as there is a chance, you need to know about it.

    Look in the Site Library for the Template Letter requesting a list of all charges applied to your husband's account until the date of its closure, under the Data Protection Act. Send £10, in payment.

    If it was in his sole name, he will have to make the request.

    Don't limit yourself to six years. I'm pretty certain that the statute of limitationsicon, when applied to mortgagesicon, is twelve years. They will probably tell you that they only keep records going back twelve years, anyway.

    They have 40 days to provide you with the information. By now, they will have a good idea what you are looking for.

    Compare their list with the statements you have available.

    You are able to claim back anything listed as arrears fees, arrears letters, returned cheque charges or letter charges, although there may be others, pertinent to you, which I haven't listed.

    Normally you would not be able to claim back Legal Charges.

    On the one statement I had to hand, when I began my claim, there was an "arrears fee" of £99.

    On the list of charges which they supplied, however, this had become "legal costs", and I successfully claimed them back.

    As an observation, Legal Costs (monies paid to a solicitor in pursuing, for example, a re-possession) would normally be charged at a rate in excess of £300, even though they use their own legal dept. In theory, the legitimacy of these charges could be challenged, but I lacked the knowledge and confidence to do so, despite being charged several thousands of pounds, over the years.

    List all your charges on the Excel spreadsheet, in the Library, and when you know the grand total, send A&L a lbaicon (letter before actionicon. Again there is a Template in the Library).

    They then have fourteen days to pay up, or you begin an on-line claim through the Court at Money Claim On Line (MCOL).

    When you begin the process, start your own thread under Other Institutions - mortgageicon Companies, so that people can offer support, help and advice.

    If there is anything else I can do, please feel free to re-visit this thread, or pm me.

    Once again, welcome aboard and good luck to you and your husband.

    Phil

    Phil
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage ** WON **

    Hi Phil,
    Many thanks for your prompt reply. It has given me so much confidence to get cracking at these people ! Thank you for your time. You have itemised so clearly the procedure/action plan to follow i am sure i can do this.I also note your comment where to post thread once i`m up and running with this.Was a bit confused about where to post messages as i`m a newbie at this.
    Just a note re Legal fees- these arose because my husband had 2 mortgageicon accounts. Unknown to us for 12months they were putting all payments onto one account. Subsequently one account was in credit and the other in arrears, after a visit from an enquiry agent this was rectified but the fees were left on the account. Their cock up but we paid.
    I am doing the paperwork/research stuff and he is signing it as the claimant.
    Will post again when something is happening. Many thanks once again.

    Regards Sybil.


  19. #19

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage ** WON **

    Hello Philip,

    I believe we have quite a few things in common regarding Alliance & Leicester mortgagesicon.

    If you have the time would you read my thread here on CAGicon?

    I would appreciate your advice.

    Thanks



  20. #20

    Default Re: Alliance & Leicester Mortgage ** WON **

    thread is 11ys old!!

    PLEASE REFRAIN FROM HITTING 'REPLY WITH QUOTE' IF YOU ARE SIMPLY REPLYING TO THE LAST POST IN A THREAD..JUST TYPE!!
    it makes a thread twice as long to scroll through..save data download times and costs
    If you want advice please PM me a link to your thread. PM advice is not allowed!!
    DX
    RIP Martin3030

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