Background:

I am a leaseholder.

My property management company are shocking. Truly terrible. As in, they've been investigated on Watchdog, by newspapers, etc etc etc. Every year or so, one subsidiary of the company takes over from the last.

They all pretend to be different companies, but everyone knows the score.

They are all equally bad.

I moved here in 2007. In 2007 and 2008, I received bills for the service charge, and without even seeing a statement of accounts, I paid them, knowing that even if I argued, I'd end up paying anyway. Defeatist? Probably. But it was the easiest option.

In 2009, no bill. It did take me a while to notice, but I twigged a little while before Xmas 2009. All the way through to Feb 2010 time, nothing. So I phoned the company several times, asking for a bill and accounts for the year. Left numerous messages on answerphones, saying just how urgent it was, no reply. In April 2010, I emailed the company on another matter - in this email I had my address, phone numbers and email addresses for home and work. I got a few emails back in the conversational exchange and the company arranged to drop something unrelated to the bill off at my house, which they did. But never a bill, invoice, statement of accounts or similar.

In Oct 2010, a new subsidiary (again pretending to be a completely separate company), took over. Admittedly, they've been much better - they've actually sent me some paperwork and stuff. Not related to the bill or accounts though.

I've just received a letter from the county court alleging that I owe the property management company money for 2009 and 2010 fees (c. £600 of management fees +£500 of legal fees on top).

Naturally, I'm a tad irate , especially as I called them several times trying to obtain a bill.

There are also a few things which don't add up:

1. In the documents from the court, it alleges that 'Company X' were the management company for the duration of the time (2009/2010). I've never heard of 'Company X' nor received any kind of correspondence from them.

My management company don't even have a similar name.

2. 'Company X' were allegedly contracted to the residents group, of which I am told a shareholder.

The residents group themselves look shady, are based in a PO box 100 miles away and change directors every year.

I've never been invited to an AGM or similar. The claimant is the residents group.

3. 'Company X' are now dissolved, though the company who were ACTUALLY my management company are still trading - they do though have c. £100,000 of unpaid CCJ decisions against them though.

4. The claimants show no bill or statement of accounts from those years in the legal documents.

Is this normal?

Can they claim an amount they cannot prove is owed?

(Also am I right in thinking that CPR31.16 doesn't apply for small claims?)

5. I chased up the company for a bill but they didn't send it. A few weeks later, I mention in my email that they haven't returned my calls etc and they don't bat an eyelid or mention any outstanding fees.

So.... what do I do from here?

I will of course defend the claim! I'm thinking that I defend the whole amount, saying that as I've not received a bill nor accounts proving what has been paid out, I dispute that what I owe is the amount they are stating.

I do though want to show my willingness to pay any ACTUAL debt as I know there will be SOME amount owed as I am a leaseholder.

What else should I put in my defence statement?

Should I include the emails etc to prove I was in contact with my management company or just keep it simple?

I'm curious as to whether the legal team can produce any letters from company X seeing as they've been dissolved, and I've certainly never, ever had any correspondence from them whatsoever!

It is most odd.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice you can give me!

Hiya.

I've had various disputes with my freeholder/management company too.

It would appear you have various ways of defending this.

1. Are the actual present management company entitled to the money or entitled to start court action, generally it would be the freeholder (who then employs a managment agent) although sometimes management agents are also party to the lease and therefore have certain rights.

2. There are lots of laws governing demands for service charges, for example they must contain the freeholders name and address and after October 2007 must contain a 'Summary of rights', also they may not be payable if sent to you, 18 months after they were incurred (it does sound like sum of the amounts you paid for 2007,2008 may not technically have been payable)...and it may be the amount for 2010 is also not payable.

3. Even if amounts are payable, you have the right to apply to an LVT to assess whether they are reasonable in amount.

It also may be that the extra costs added on may not be payable, only if the leases allows admin/legal costs can be added.

I suggest visiting the following sites:-

Leasehold Advisory service - (Great free help) - http://www.lease-advice.org/

RPTS - (Info about LVT's and how they work) - http://www.rpts.gov.uk/

Landlord Zone (Great forum for leasehold issues) - http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?11-Long-Leasehold-Questions

The Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 (Sections 18 - 30 apply) - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70

Feel free to post any further questions.

Andy

Andy, thank you very much for your help - that's great.

I hope you don't mind me asking your opinion on this!

The LEASE website has been most helpful indeed (thanks again)

- and I have comments on all of the following.

Should I send all of this with my claim form defence, do you think?

• service charge payers must be consulted before the landlord commences qualifying works, other than under a long-term agreement, which will cost any leaseholder more than £250, or enters into a long-term contract worth more than £100 for any leaseholder in any accounting year (a 'qualifying long-term agreement').
  Does this include appointment of a new managing agent?
  This has taken place each year with no consultation.
   
  
• demands for payment must be served within time limits (18 months), and new legislation, which came into force on 1/10/07, requires a summary of the leaseholder's rights and obligations to accompany such demands. I've not received any bill whatsoever, and have never had this summary with any paperwork sent to me by the other managing agent.
   
  
• the landlord must account for all annual expenditure through a summary of relevant costs following a written request from a leaseholder or secretary of the Recognised Tenants' Association.
   
  After the summary is provided a leaseholder or secretary of the Recognised Tenants' Association can inspect the relevant documents.
   
  I've requested this in writing (though perhaps foolishly didn't go so far as to request by recorded delivery!) and have still not been provided with this information - surely the claim form would have been the ideal time to present this?
   
  

One final note: the claim is for 01/01/2009- 31/12/2009 and 01/01/2010-31/01/2010, but the company alleged to be the managing agent were dissolved in June 2010 - is this relevant?

Thank you again.

Hi Miss Vix

I would be tempted to send them a SAR with £10 they will send you all the data they hold on your account. They will have 40 days to respond. The info provided might shed a light on whats going on.

Also see what neighbours are being charged and how they feel about the charges. Check Google to see if there are other complaints.

Thank you very much - what would I have to ask them for? 'Company X' look to be another subsidiary of the company we (and hundreds of others) have had many, many problems with - hence so many outstanding CCJs - will the really toe the line?

Hiya.

Does this include appointment of a new managing agent? This has taken place each year with no consultation.

This can be a tricky one, and isnt as clear cut as the £250/Major Works Consulatation one.

I assume the management fee is over £100, otherwise its not worth fighting over.

The rules are that if the freeholder decides to emply a management agent and the contract between freeholder and management agent is over 12 months then you should be informed (this is to give you a chance to perhaps suggest alternative companies, in a similar vein to when major works are done, you can nominate alternative builders).

The trouble with the £100/12 month one is that you prob have no idea how long the contract bewteen the two is for !...it is perfectly legal for the two to have a 12 month only contract and renew it each you, unfortunately in that case you have no say (except to argue at an LVt that the amount is excessive). How much are you charged ?

I've not received any bill whatsoever, and have never had this summary with any paperwork sent to me by the other managing agent.

This sounds like good news, if you have never received any bill then it is not payable (see Section 21B) if the bill arrives but is 18 months after costs were incurred then its is not payable, if the bill arrives but there is no 'Summary of rights' attached then again it is not payable !

Now it is possible for the freeholder to recitfy the above within the time limits (sometimes if your freeholder is dumb and doing everything wrong there is a benefit to saying nothing, just let the 18 month limit run out !).

There is a provisio in which the 18 month limit doesnt aply, this is Section 20B (2) of The L&T Act, ()Subsection (1) shall not apply if, within the period of 18 months beginning with the date when the relevant costs in question were incurred, the tenant was notified in writing that those costs had been incurred and that he would subsequently be required under the terms of his lease to contribute to them by the payment of a service charge.] however as youve said youve received nothing then this wont apply, it would appear from what youve said that nothing is payable, and any resulting admin charges are also not payable for the same reason (although it may also be that they arnt payable under the lease anyway).

I've requested this in writing (though perhaps foolishly didn't go so far as to request by recorded delivery!) and have still not been provided with this information - surely the claim form would have been the ideal time to present this?

This is all about Section 21 of The L&T Act, the trouble with this is that this section of the law is a right mess, they keep changing it but it hasnt taken affect, therefore what you read online is worthless and confusing, the current state is that if you request a summary then it must be sent (I cant quite remember if S21A takes effect and then its another reason not to pay), It may be worth asking this question at the landlord zone forum (and ask about the S21A bit, can you withold payment ?), the 'mess' that is S21 has been discussed a lot and Im sure youd get some good answers.

I have got a defence prepared for my court case I can post up if you like ?...It pretty much is a defence and covers the above points.

Who is your freeholder/management agent ?. It sounds like Solitaire or Estates & Management or someone like that.

Another important point, have you a copy of your lease ?

Andy

Just amend the template.

www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/youth/template_sar_letter.doc

just press cancel when the box comes up.

Thank you very much - what would I have to ask them for? 'Company X' look to be another subsidiary of the company we (and hundreds of others) have had many, many problems with - hence so many outstanding CCJs - will the really toe the line?

It is often worth looking through LVT decisions at http://www.lease-advice.org/lvtdecisions/tables.asp?table=2, just type in their name or any other keywords and you may found many have at similar problems.

Andy

Just amend the template.

www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/youth/template_sar_letter.doc

 

just press cancel when the box comes up.

I'm not 100% sure though that a SAR is the right way to get information about freehold/management agents (this was discussed elsewhere but I cant recall what the outcome was). Leaseholders already have strong rights such as demanded a suammry, demanding to see insurance docs, and they even have the right to visit the freeholder and inspect docs in person...the fact in this case the freeholder/MA has already ignored a summary request means he may not respond to a SAr either, in any event as court action has now begun MissFix will have right to ask for disclosure of docs anyway, and for the arrears to be proven they will have to be shown in court (I won a similar case regarding ground rent as the freeholder turned up in court empty handed )

Andy

O.K. andy good stuff:-)

Thank you yet again for all your help. I'm just digging out my lease - I put it in safe storage many moons ago....*ahem*

The fees are approx £300-400 per year, though going up every year of course! And you're right, I've no idea how long the contracts are for - though each company does a little over a year.

Yes again, you're right...it's Solitaire group. The 'company X' listed on the claim form dissolved in mid-2006 so I don't know how they can be listed as the company agent for the duration of the time (and are still spoken about in present tense). I've never received anything from any of them. The claim form states that 2 letters were sent in Feb 2010 - nothing mentioned in 2009 at all.

I'll check your links, dig out my lease and be back - thanks again.

Yep, dig out the lease, its a good idea to scan it and save it as a pdf, youll prob be needed to show it/print a copy if you get into disputes. Hope you find it, I too have found myself searching for documents now 15 years old, if you run into problems (I couldnt find a Deed Of Variation) then you can get copies from the Land Registry, £24 I think for a lease, in my case finding the old Deed was very imporatnt as I had been overcharged ground rent for 14 years, this ended up in court but I came away over a grand up which was very pleasing

There is a whole seperate site about Solitaire such is their popularity !http://www.thetruthaboutsolitaire.co.uk/

and searching at the LAS site LVT Decisions came up with 74 results http://search.freefind.com/find.html?si=69799359&pid=r&n=0&_charset_=iso-8859-1&bcd=%F7&s=1985_1987_Act_decisions&query=solitaire

£300 - £400 sounds a lot for a mangement fee (I pay £120 in Essex), but it may depend on how much is done, if its for example a large block in london with conceriege and swimming pool it may be acceptable, if not, you could arge against it purely on unreasonable cost grounds.

Andy

Thanks again Andy - and I definitely know the TTAS website well - you're not 'that' Andy I presume? ;-)

Oddly enough, the reason I was chasing them up for a bill/accounts was for the very reason of taking them to LVT - so when they didn't reply I was disappointed but not surprised. I live in a maisonette, the thing they do for me is pay the building insurance as far as I can see - the landscaping/graffitti removal/cleaning of communal areas/property maintenance is absolutely nonexistant!

Thanks again - I'll try and get everything together tomorrow.

The claimant (freeholder), Company X and my actual managing agent for the time are ALL based at the same address in London. Company X dissolved in June 2010. Should I mention all of this? Would it harm my defence to do so? I'd rather disclose all in the hope that it goes in my favour.

Hi..Nah.Ive not been to TTAS site as thats not my freeholder.

I'm afraid Im less clued up as to whether the management agent has the right to start a claim against you. What name is on the actual court claim ?

I have a feeling that it is acceptable for management agents to change and arrears get passed on from one to the other. It may depend on what your lease says, normally the lease is purely a contract between you and the freeholder and only he has the right to start legal action, etc, however it may be that the management company is also party to the lease (youll have to have a read and try and find out).

In any event it would appear from what youve said that you already have a good defence in that invoices wernt sent, summary of rights wernt attached or 18 months has passed, any one of those 3 would make their claim fail.

Ive attached my defence I shall be using, mine is similar but my defence is based on:-

1. The demand was sent in advance, (my lease makes no allowance for advance payments, however most do)

2. Some demands simply wernt sent (I only saw them for the first time recently as a result of requesting all the revelant recent ones).

3. Some of the demands were not accompanied by the Summary Of Rights

4. Even when a summary was sent, its doesnt comply to the rules (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1257/regulation/3/made), I noticed that summary's sent to me where squashed onto one sheet this means that they used a small font size 8 BUT the law says they must be size 10 !..a small change but the law is the law ..*Note* Im being a bit quiet about this one as I think they have prob sent out many thousands of demands and it may be that they are ALL invalid.

So I would of thought you could base your defence on mine just ignore the advance stuff (assuming your lease obliges you to pay up front) obviously I'm not a solicitor so this is for advice only.

Andy

Defence to Counterclaim - Short.pdf

Looks like you have a pretty solid defence there too!

I don't mind the debt being passed from one to the other - as long as somewhere along the line there's an invoice and accounts which are accurate. Simple request

I strongly suspect that they've sent a lot of these, hoping people will crap themselves and automatically pay out...hopefully I can get to the bottom of it all though!

Thank you again for taking the time to help me - I'll let you know how I get on.

I'd hazard a guess that most leaseholders pay up especially when faced with court action (I did in the past, which reminds me it is very important to never make an agreement or admission that sums are owing, you can pay up, but thats not an admission and means you can ask the LVT later (upto 12 years !) to force the freeholder to repay you), asl most people are unaware of their rights as a leaseholder.

The normal course of events is at court they will order it to go to an LVT to decide on service charge matters and then it goes back to court, you could of course pre-empt this by starting an LVT yourself, it is also wise if you go to a LVT to perhaps dispute the earlier years you have paid, so you could perhaps come away with an LVT finding that in fact large amounts should be refunded to you.

Andy

I didn't realise I had 12 years for an LVT! Useful info.

Can I start an LVT without the bills/invoices/accounts info? It seems a difficult way to get the info I want!

Yep, occasionally the issue of whether the Limitation is 6 or 12 years pops up but mostly its agreed that it is 12 years, mine was disallowed to go that far back but for different reasons, because in 2005 I was niave and made an admission (although plans are now afoot to overturn it).

It wouldnt be you that needs to show bills or invoices, it would be upto the freeholder to prove he sent them to you and prove that the summary of rights was there too (although that only applies from Oct 2007 onwards.)

You would though need to know the amounts you have paid in the past. (Have you got a breakdown of the amounts for 2007 and 2008 ?, or were they just a single sum ?).

As you have paid the amounts in 2007 & 2008, I dont think the demand/summary provisions take effect but you could ask the LVT to decide that the amounts were excessive and unreasonable, for example £300-£400 for a management fee sounds excessive, I pay £120, sometimes £250 might be a maximum, if you can point out there was very little 'management' done or that they didnt do a good job, (i.e not reply to queries) then a LVT may well reduce it and you should be refunded/credited.

What was the total you paid in 2007 & 2008 ?, did it include an amount for insurance ?. This is something that is very often challanged at LVT's but is harder to prove you pay too much.

A good idea is to use the LVT decisions link I put above and have a look at previous decisions (especially Solitaire ones or local ones) this will give you a good idea of how they work and what you can question.

Andy

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They should have sent you statements, demands and final demands and then a letter before action. If they didnt then get it set aside forget everthing else. By law they have to give you a fair chance to pay.

True, although i dont think it is an aumtomatic set aside if the claimant hasnt sent demands and a NBA although a judge would of expecting them to and act reasonably, it may however be worth letting it carry on for the reasons I suggested above, being that a court should transfer it to a LVT (Leasehold Valuation Tribunal), the LVT casn then re-examine sums previously paid and possibly order certain amounts to be refunded.

It does sound as if earlier amount were not actually payable and even if they were, they were excessive and unreasonable in amount, if the claimant has started a claim it may be worth taking advantage of the transfer to the LVT coz he will be paying thus saving you the application fee, you may find that various sums can be refunded and it is aslso a good opurtunity to seek clarification on certain points within the lease.

For example, a major query in mine was can the freeholder demand advance payments if no obligation in the lease, this was clarified by the LVt as 'no'..you can see my results here.. http://www.rpts.gov.uk/Files/2010/April/00000ZSI.pdf

Another important point is to check the lease to see what it says about legal fees, some leases oblige you to pay your freeholders legal fees, and this applies even if he wins or loses (there will no doubt be a bit about S146 fees which arnt relevant here but check if it mentions other legal fees), also have a read of S20C of L&T Act which makes sure a freeholder is topped from passing on such fees.

Andy

Thanks for the advice - I did think this was the case, having been the claimant at County Court before. The claim particulars tell me that they sent two letters over the two years (in Oct and Nov of 2009) - I don't think this is adequate for letters and NBAs - is there a guideline?

Also of note is that the management fees are payable in advance - if as they claim they didn't write to me until Oct 2009, then they weren't sticking to the particulars of the lease anyway!

Thanks again Andy. It does indeed mention S146/147 but not S20 or L&T. I still can't find my original lease but will redouble my efforts. I'm hoping that pointing out that 'Company X' 1. didn't send me any bills whatsoever, 2. weren't actually the managing agent (written proof of this enclosed with my defence) and 3. haven't even included bills or accounts in their claim particulars (!) will be enough to get it pushed back and perhaps give me a bit of time to find my lease and dig for more dirt!

Finding the lease is most important as what it says..goes!..and any decision taken by a county court or LVT would look closely at a lease, in my instance the lease is rather vague, thgere is no mention of advance payments of legal costs, etc (Except for S146 notices) so (like many) LVT cases its upto the tribunal to try and 'descipher' the lease, alas this is a bit of a grey area and often one side does not agree with outcome, in my case I argjed that there was no need to have an audited account, but the LVT decided the opposite.

It is therefore most important you find your lease, it may be worth visiting The Land Registry site and applying for a copy and part with £24, although it may be possible your original house buying solicitor may have a copy, also if your freeholder/MA is serious about going to court he would have to provide a copy as evidence anyway (thus saving you the £24) although it may be he doesnt have to send it to the court (and you) untill nearer the hearing date (which could be many months off).

Andy

Oh definitely. I just stored it somewhere safe so that it wouldn't get damaged or lost.

This doesn't appear to be any of the places I've looked.... still, I'll be turning the place upside down at the weekend!

Hello all

I've done a number of searches but can't find the answer to my question, apologies if I've missed it!

Some time ago, I received a CC claim stating that I owed certain fees.

I don't dispute this but wrote a robust report detailing the fact that I had had no bill nor statement claiming the monies (something substantiated by the claimant's own submission to court!) and that I had not been advised of the outstanding amount despite being in regular contact with the firm involved.

The claim continued for some time and was allocated. I was asked to submit evidence by X date.

I sent my evidence next-day-delivery to arrive on X date (as the claimant have been proven to have been a little creative with documentation in the past!!).

The claimant submitted no evidence whatsoever.

I received a call from the claimant's solicitors stating that he was unaware of the evidence I had, had been given no evidence from the claimant to submit and that on his advice they were dropping the case.

However I've been slapped with £700+ of legal fees for the claimant's solicitor! It has been added to my existing bill and I am being told I must pay.

To complicate matters, the claimant have been replaced with a new company and the new firm have been given all the accounts, so to them this is a legitimate debt and they have no knowledge of previous correspondence and are refusing to accept my explanation.

Is this right?

If a claimant submits a vexatious claim and then drop it, should the defendant pay all costs? If so, why is this? Thanks in advance!