I've not been on here for a while and i'm a little rusty with regards to the current proceedures to take with Debt collectors.

AIC have written to me in reference to an American Express card I had that until 3 months ago was being paid monthly on time,then the proverbial hit thre fan (things I don't want to go into)

They are collecting for Amex and want the full balance of £1500+, and they have added to the balance an amount of £286 to the debt. (referral fee)

AIC contacted me last week, I explained what difficulties I had and offered them £20 a month which is all I can afford. They said they would not accept any payment offers, they want to proceed to court unless I pay ther balance before the 20 November. The guy on the phone was very arrogant and as I was trying to talk to him and try and get them to accept this offer, he just said, thanks Mr dori2o and put the phone down with me in mid sentance.

What is the first thing I do, as I remeber it is CCA request, SAR to reclaim any charges, and Telephone harrasment letter, but what then

any and all help appreciated.

***bump***

any help please

The CCA, SAR and tele harassment letter are a fine start and request that all future correspondence is in writing only (is that in the tele harassment letter, I can't remember). Send them off and see what their response is. Then take it from there.

Firstly, don't talk to any DCA on the phone.

AIC are not going to take you to court; they will just try to bully you into paying. Amex can be persistent, and do sometimes go to court, always through solicitors, and often when they think they can get a default judgment.

To stop them in their tracks, you need to do two things:

1. Send a CCA request (it's in the templates) to AIC. Don't sign the letter, and send it by at least recorded delivery.

2. Wait until they respond, and post whatever they send you on this thread. We'll be able to tell you whether it's enforceable or not.

If the agreement is not enforceable, there's nothin Amex or any DCA can do. If it's enforceable, then you can formally dispute the debt because the 'file referral fees' do not conform to the OFT Guidance and because the debt contains penalty charges.

There's some other bits and pieces, but first, get that CCA off.

finally a response to the CCA request. This is all they sent, nothing else at all

Is that it, no terms and conditions, no prescribed terms:D In my opinion unenforceable. Send them this recorded delivery, don't sign. Good luck

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Thank you for your letter dated ***.

It would seem that you are of the belief that you have discharged your obligations under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 in particular section 78(1).

You have provided me a copy of an application form and I feel it is my duty to draw your attention to some serious flaws in your comments.

Firstly, to comply with section 61 of the consumer credit act 1974 which by the way refers to the signing of an agreement (Not an application), a document must conform to regulations made under the provisions of section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 otherwise it cannot be properly executed

Now then, these regulations I refer to are the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). These regulations set out the form and content of agreements. For an agreement to be compliant with the regulations it MUST embody within the agreement, the prescribed terms laid out in the SI1983/1553 without the prescribed terms the agreement does not conform to section 60(1) 1974 and therefore cannot be properly executed as described in section 61(1) CCA 1974.

For your information in case you are unsure. The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following--

(a)Number of repayments;

(b)Amount of repayments;

©Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d)Dates of repayments;

(e)The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

Now nowhere on the application form that you supplied is there any reference to these terms. I wish to remind you that the absence of these terms will render a document unenforceable in court and I also wish to point out that these terms MUST be contained within the agreement and NOT in a separate document headed terms and conditions or words to that effect

Since the document you have supplied is a clear mailer application form, I cannot believe for one moment that these very important terms would be contained on the opposite side of the form, unless they are there for the postman to read while he delivers the mail. Therefore they must have been contained in a separate document, which is prohibited by the SI1983/1553, as there is no clear link to them within the signature document.

Therefore, you have failed to supply an enforceable document, which is correctly executed as to be so; it must conform to the Regs under s60 CCA1974

I am of the opinion that a court is precluded from enforcing this agreement by s127 (3) CCA1974 as it is improperly executed under s61 CCA 74, the consequences of improper execution are set out in section 65 CCA 1974 and s65 sets out that only a court can enforce an improperly executed agreement subject to certain qualifications, one of those is that the document is signed and contains all the prescribed terms. Now since this document does not contain all the prescribed terms s127 (3) CCA 1974 strictly prevents the court from enforcing this agreement.

If you cannot supply me with a document, which complies with the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and ALL of the Regulations made under the Act, I shall be forced to make a complaint to Trading Standards and I will also draw this to the attention of the Office of Fair Trading .

I respectfully request you review this matter in light of my comments above and I request that you supply me the required information or alternatively confirm the account is closed and the debt written off with a zero balance.

I respectfully request a reply within 14 days of the date of this letter.

Yours Sincerely

THIS IS AN APPLICATION

Says it all.

Clearly unenforceable, but Amex will continue to push to the line; you need to maintain a robust stance with them.

OK, I sent the 'you have not complied with CCA request' letter. Today I got a letter from American Express saying they had been in contact with AIC and were dissapointed that I had not responded to their correspondence (despite the fact they have signed for 2 of my letters) and under the guidance of AIC will now be passing this to an agent to make a doorstep call in order to collect payment.

The problem is, both AIC and American Express keep writing to my parents address, this is despite me telling AIC that I no longer live there and have given them my forwarding details.

My mum is now worried about the prospect of a doorstep call, and even more about the possibility of them trying to get a charge on my mum and dads property when the debt has nothing to do with them.

I will send the letter to them revoking the authority for them to visit my mums home,but how can I get them to correspond with me at my address?

There's probably a good chance they won't even send anyone, but if they do, tell your mum that she can give the doorstepper your new address and he is welcome to visit you there. When he turns up on your doorstep tell him to go and do one, he has no powers whatsoever and you can at least be satisfied you gave him the runaround for the afternoon

Hi, I am a newbie to this site with amex problems like your's anyway perhaps you shoud notify them one more time of address change (Send recorded for future proof) and point out that your parents will no longer pass on mail to you and will simply return all mail in your name as "gone away" or "no longer living at this address" I am sure they wont then continue to post willy nilly!!

Good luck, will be watching with interest!!!!!!!!!!!

Still no response to my letter posted last Friday informing AIC that the CCA request has not been met as required and I have posted the doorstep letter yesterday after the receipt of their letter dated 28 November.

Now, I'm wondering about the default they issued.

I'm pretty sure it's invalid as it says to deal with within 14 days of the letter and was sent 2nd class post, so assuming it was posted on 1 November they should have given me 14 days from 5 November as I understand.

I've been reading through a few other Amex default posts and this is not uncommon, then I came accross this from bankers_rhymes_with

Just what was outstanding before Termination, so that would only be the Payments you missed, not the whole Balance.

 

To explain that, the original Agreement (assuming there ever was one), would've been to let you build up a Balance on the Card, that you would be allowed to Pay off over time via Monthly Payments.

 

In return for all of the Interest Amex could charge for this, they accepted this is how things would work. They'd set a Credit Limit, they'd set an Interest Rate, and they'd say how much you had to Pay each Month as a minimum to keep your side of the Agreement.

 

The above are the Prescribed Terms, so that's why they have to be contained within the four corners of the Agreement and that must be Signed by you to make it Enforceable. The Original Copy is Enforceable, I hasten to add, not a bunch of crabby Scans claiming to be an Agreement.

 

So, provided things all worked as planned, you got an Amex Card to play with, and they enjoyed the benefits of your Monthly Payments.

 

This could go on forever, although the main limit is how long you can stay alive for, as it will be assumed Amex will go on for ever, as they are a bank not a living breathing person.

 

This is why the Consumer Credit Act 1974 doesn't mention any obvious way for a bank to pull out of the Agreement if things are going well, as why should they want to? The assumption being that they will be quite happy to earn interest for as long as you stay alive to pay it.

 

OK, when things go wrong, then that is when the Creditor has a get out clause within the CCA 1974. That is covered by s87/s88.

 

Let's imagine that you have to Pay, say, £100 a Month, and the Balance is £5,000.

 

If you miss a Month, then you go into Arrears straight away, but only by what you missed, i.e. £100.

 

Amex will then start moaning.

 

If you miss the next 2 Months, then the Arrears start to build up, and you now owe £300 (probably more, but this is just an example).

 

Now, at this point, Amex may decide they've had enough, and should issue you with a Default Notice, saying how bad you have been, and they want you to catch up and Pay the £300 of Arrears within 14 Clear Days (assuming the Default Notice is valid).

 

At this point, only the Arrears are due for Payment, the main Balance is not due, as whilst the Agreement is live, you are allowed to Pay that off over a long time...Payments stretching out into the future.

 

If you don't Pay, then after the 14 Days, s87 allows them to demand the whole Balance of around £5,200 (i.e. the £5,000 plus interest not Paid in the 3 Months).

 

At that point, the Agreement to Pay things off over time is ended, and due to s87 they are now entitled to demand the whole lot in one go. Thus, asking for the whole Balance is the same as Terminating, as it clearly means the Agreement is dead.

 

They can also Terminate via Letter, which is more to the point but is the same as Terminating by demanding the whole Balance.

 

At this stage they can say Pay us the lot, we want £5,200 now, or we will take you to Court.

 

OK, now, what if they screwed the pooch on the Default Notice?

 

Let's say they got the 14 Days wrong, or the Arrears Balance or they made a mess of the layout...or all three!

 

If they then go ahead to Terminate via Letter and/or Terminate by asking for the whole Balance, then the moment they do, the Agreement is ended.

 

However, without a valid Default Notice, they have just thrown away the benefits of s87. They've just blown any Right, ever, to ask for the Balance.

 

But they can ask for what was due before Termination, so you'd be left with a liability of £300.

 

Does that make sense now?

 

Cheers,

BRW

Is it worth persuing this line. They have now asked for the whole balance, plus their charges, so I assume that by doing this they have effectively cancelled the agreement under S87, and the monies required to settle the default according to the notice were £80. So if BRW is correct the most they can try and recover is £80.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

bump

I have just checked through mycredit files and I'm having a dispute with Amex,they have issued a Default notice, but have not reported it to the CRA's. The default notice is invalid as it does not gaive the 14 days from service to rectify the problem, could this be why they have not reported it. I have not mentioned to Amex that I feel their default notice is invalid.

UPDATE:

I have today received a letter from H L Legal and Collections Solicitors.

Thery say they have been instructed by AIC to consider legal proceedings agfainst me in the Notrthampton County Court for recovery of the full amount together with statutory intrest and additional costs and I should contact AIC if I want to avoid this action. There will be no further warning apparently.

They state that upon judgement the following methods could be considered, attachment of earnings, warrent of execution,Charging order or Bankruptcy where applicable.

All correspondence MUST be sent to the offices od AIC, including ref number etc..etc..

So, what do I do now. They have not responded to my 'That is not a credit agreement' letter. They have not sent a doorstep collector as threatened.

Any and all help appreciated.

any help please

Dear Sirs,

I write in response to your letter dated XXXXX

Your letter is incorrect and frivolous, you are fully aware of legally valid reasons why no payment has been made on this account, namely that the agreement which underpins this account has not been supplied despite a perfectly valid request and furthermore, it is suggested that notwithstanding the failure to supply a copy, the agreement itself is improperly executed, devoid of all prescribed terms and deficient in respect of detail relating to APR, total charge for credit and statements of rights, remedies and protections as required by schedules 1,2 and 6 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983

Therefore the agreement as outlined in section 65 (1) Consumer Credit Act must be laid before the court to be granted an enforcement order before any further action can be taken

It is my view that the court would not grant such an order due to the deficiencies that I have outlined within the agreement, further more the absence of any documents disproving my points itself speaks volumes.

Therefore, I would indeed welcome the opportunity to place this before the court. furthermore should you proceed with the threats to issue a court claim I will make an immediate application to have it set aside for the grounds outlined above, also I shall refer the judge to this letter when the matter of costs falls due

I trust this outlines my position clearly enough for you

They will probably argue that what they have sent you is enforceable.....so the only option may be to scrap it out in court.

AIC are total B******s. I was three months behind on my Amex payments and Amex sent the account to them. They phoned me and threatened me with Court Action saying they were adding over £1000 to my debt and I had to pay it immediately or they would sue me for bankruptcy, try to get my home re-possessed, and more. I was crying and I was absolutely suicidal. I offered £840 including my child allowance - everything I had to live on for the month to pay mortgage, etc., - and they refused it saying it was £9000+ or nothing. I registered with CCCS and told AIC I had done this and they backed off immediately. I then wrote to Amex saying I wanted a copy of my agreement and got a copy of my 60-second application form which has terms and conditions on the back - but I don't know if they are the actual terms and conditions at the time - March 2000. In the interim period after I had sent this letter AIC called and said they would accept the £840. I said they couldn't have it as I had paid someone else instead. They are quiet at the moment, and said Amex would give me three months to come up with a repayment plan, but firstly they were saying my account was no longer with Amex and had been sold to them. Does anyone have a copy of what the actual terms and conditions were in 2000?

I am confused because there seem to be two schools of thought here. One says the t & c must be within the four corners of the agreement, but others say it is okay if they are on the back, but how can we know if what they say was on the back actually was?

Nightmare.

Dear Sirs,

 

I write in response to your letter dated XXXXX

 

Your letter is incorrect and frivolous, you are fully aware of legally valid reasons why no payment has been made on this account, namely that the agreement which underpins this account has not been supplied despite a perfectly valid request and furthermore, it is suggested that notwithstanding the failure to supply a copy, the agreement itself is improperly executed, devoid of all prescribed terms and deficient in respect of detail relating to APR, total charge for credit and statements of rights, remedies and protections as required by schedules 1,2 and 6 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983

 

Therefore the agreement as outlined in section 65 (1) Consumer Credit Act must be laid before the court to be granted an enforcement order before any further action can be taken

 

It is my view that the court would not grant such an order due to the deficiencies that I have outlined within the agreement, further more the absence of any documents disproving my points itself speaks volumes.

 

Therefore, I would indeed welcome the opportunity to place this before the court. furthermore should you proceed with the threats to issue a court claim I will make an immediate application to have it set aside for the grounds outlined above, also I shall refer the judge to this letter when the matter of costs falls due

 

I trust this outlines my position clearly enough for you

Do I send it to AIC or HL Legal or both?

Do I send it to AIC or HL Legal or both?

Anyone?

send it to HL Legal monkies

Hi,

I got a letter from HL Legal saying it was my last warning but I did nothing and then I heard from AIC directly. HL's letter says they have been instructed to "consider" legal proceedings, not that they are taking them within so many days, so I would write to AIC. You can always cc HL Legal too if you want to, but I don't think it is necessary.

Good luck.

DD

I think it is meant to be sent to the solicitors- HL legal as it is them who sent the letter and them that will instigate the court action:)

oh naughty of them, is your account terminated or on default only?

milly X