I have just received a £50 fixed penalty for

" an authorised officer of the council witnessed litter been thrown by a Male from the drivers side at such and such a street, as i am the registerd keeper i have been issued with this fixed penalty fine"

The car was moving i was not stopped so how do they know who was driving and has anyone challenged this type of thing

I just dont know how they can say it was me

what is the law on this

They don't know and they have no powers under the traffic law to demand the ID. what regs have they issued the FPN under ?

Hi

offence of leaving litter

Environmental Protection act 1990 section 88

It says on the ticket

Male driver threw pieces of paper from his vehicle onto the road

I was never stopped the 1st i knew of this is when the fixed penalty came in the post

I just don't see how they can fine you if they cannot prove who was driving the car? I have asked for photo evidence as to who the driver was so as i may be able to inform them who was actually driving

Why are you trying to do their job for them ? They can only ask the person they suspect of littering for their name and address. they have picked you as the RK. Where is is the reasonable suspicion that it was you ? see Environmental Protection Act 1990 (c. 43) - Statute Law Database If it was me I would be tempted to send them back a Notice recognising their Notice and ask them for their proof that it was you, failing proof what FACTS their 'reasonable suspicion' is based on. If its just that you are the RK (and it will be that) then they are just fishing. I wouldn't have a problem letting this go to Magistrate's Court and defending it but they sent you the FPN not me. Don't forget that there are an awful lot of people who are insured to drive your car. Hundreds of thousands if not millions. A sthis goies to Mag's court a reasonable suspicion may be enough to issue the FPN - if its reasonable that is but in court they have a much higher standard of proof and the burden is all theirs. I would make sure my Notice I sent back told them so and that you are 'putting them to proof'. And the Notice I sent back would contain no facts at all. not even that it was your car, you don't that you have not been cloned and neither does the council. Buts its your FPN not mine.

Did you throw the litter?

January 8, 2010

Trafford MBC

Environmental Enforcement Service

Trafford Town Hall

Talbot Rd

Stretford

Manchester

Email [email protected]

Attn. Mark Dale.

I was not the driver of this vehicle at the time of the alleged offence.

Please would you provide a photograph of the driver so that I can identify them?

Once you have provided me with this I will inform you of the driver's identity.

Yours faithfully,

This is the letter i sent them some days ago by email. I have also ,after reading you post, asked them for the proof that this was in fact an Authorised officer.

I just don't think that they can issue a ticket through the post without evidence that you are in fact the person who committed the offence.

I dont think this would stand up in court?

You haven't actually sent that have you?

why are you offering to do their job - its is up to them to identify the driver. leave them to it, just issue the denial ( I am assuming it is valid ). I have no wish to know who was driving and you should NOT post up who was.

OK thank you for your advice

I will let you know the outcome when and if it goes to court

I have had a very similar thing happen to me in Trafford. I asked the Council to provide details of who was driving the car at the time of the alleged offence.

They replied enclosing a witness statement from from a community safety patrol officer, stating that he was conducting a routine patrol and observed a white male with dark hair/dark jacket discarding litter from the drivers window. He stated he had an unobstructed view of this as he was directly behind the car but that the weather was raining. A colleague was sat in the car with him.

Do you think this description represents sufficient 'proof' to enable a conviction of a white male with dark hair in court?

What steps do you think I should take next?

well i am white with dark hair and i got a dark jacket...

was i with you :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Did you throw the litter?

Said the warden

I have had the same letter perhaps it was the same person the statement is identical to yours.

they have written to me some weeks ago telling me it is with there appeal people to review, as yet i have heard nothing.

When and if they contact me i will let you know.

I cant believe that this would stand up in a court

If they do persue this, you may find yourself in hot water. You have actually stated in writing that you were not the driver? You of course have a record of who was driving and can prove that person was insured to drive your car at the time can you? And that person will be prepared to go to court, admit they were driving and that they did throw litter and will accept the fine will they?

Very, very foolish.

If they do persue this, you may find yourself in hot water.

You have actually stated in writing that you were not the driver? You of course have a record of who was driving and can prove that person was insured to drive your car at the time can you?

And that person will be prepared to go to court, admit they were driving and that they did throw litter and will accept the fine will they?

IVery, very foolish.

doubtful the council has a clear photo of the driver. I would not have made the offer though. put them to proof every time.

Can you explain why?

No need to explain to you as I was adressing the OP.

No need to explain to you as I was addressing the OP.

To the OP: Ignore ClampingKing, he is mistaken.

i have to ask the question, Was dropping litter really worth all this hassle, could you not have kept it till you got home? I think that littering is just horrible.

As lamma is trying to get through. If the car has insurance, then everyone with a comprehensive policy is insured to drive it. There is no way you can say for certain who was the driver as pointed out earlier by lamma, it could have been any one of millions.

 

 

No need to explain to you as I was adressing the OP.

These forums are not just for addressing the OP, they are also for the information of others who may come at a later time looking for help on a similar matter.

If you 'know' something, then you should say so.

i have to ask the question, Was dropping litter really worth all this hassle, could you not have kept it till you got home? I think that littering is just horrible.

urrmm, you appear to have acted as judge and jury here Lula.

What evidence have you got that such an offence even occurred, and what evidence is there that it was the OP that committed this "offence"?

urrmm, you appear to have acted as judge and jury here Lula.

 

What evidence have you got that such an offence even occurred, and what evidence is there that it was the OP that committed this "offence"?

And haven't we 'all' done something that wasn't right at some time or other?

councils being interested in car insurance has already been ruled ultra vires I believe. I bet Pat has the case name.

And haven't we 'all' done something that wasn't right at some time or other?

You have obviously never seen my halo.

And someones earlier comment about anyone with Comprehensive insurance could have been driving is just plain wrong, when you take out insurance, you can either opt for or opt out of being insured to drive another vehicle. Even if you do then drive another vehicle, it is only on a 3rd Party basis.

Okay, lets say anyone with adequate cover. thats a very large number of people. Buts its none of the council's business anyway.