Hi,

I am due to attend a 'interview under caution' next week for failing to declare 'assets'. I am very distressed and in need of advice.

I have a lot of physical and mental problems and have been on incapacity benefits and income support for 6 years.

There are many things I need to remember and post, before anyone can properly advise me.

I will attempt to do so in the future, but for now I want advice on "What is the worst that can happen?"

I am a 50 year old male, with a wife and 2 young children (3, 6).

My house is on mortgage. I owe 38k on it.

My main concerns are:

01

If i'm convicted, my wife and young children will suffer abuse (with my name and address splashed in the media).

Can this be prevented?

02

Can they force me to sell our home to pay any fines?

(House and mortgage is in my name).

Appreciate any replies.

1. No, it can't be prevented. Court has public access except in some cases of "special measures" for victims of crime to give their evidence

2. If your house is considered as "proceeds of crime", then yes.

1. No, it can't be prevented. Court has public access except in some cases of "special measures" for victims of crime to give their evidence

 

2. If your house is considered as "proceeds of crime", then yes.

Thanks for replying Erika.

01,

I have seen area addresses of convicted people in the media before, but never their house numbers. Looking at benefit fraud convictions online, even their house numbers are given.

02,

To explain a bit more, my undeclared 'assets' were, policies and investments, for the sole purpose of paying my mortgage off, which is a 'interest only' mortgage.

On a previous claim for unemployment benefit in 1992, I was lead to beleive that they do not need to be declared.

Even this very minute, I'm not sure that they needed to be declared.

But what's more troubling is the fact that when the investments matured and the cash (20k) was deposited into my account, I allowed it to just sit there for years.

The cash would have reduced my mortgage from 38k to 18k and I would not have been in any trouble.

Why didn't I do it? It's related to my illness. I will try to explain later.

It will be because you had cash sitting in your bank account of £20,000 which is over the limit for income support. There have always been thresholds in place and it is asked on application if you have these assets, and should declare it is they become available whist you are in reciept of Income Support. If it HAD become available during you receiving benefits, you would still be in trouble because it was available. If you disposed of it shortly before claiming benefits, then they can still treat it as if you had the money under "deprivation of capital"

I hope that explains matters a bit more clearly, though I know it doesn't help you now to know that.

To put you at ease, the media do not always print stories - they'll pick the most interesting story to put in their newspaper. If they come across a "bigger" story than yours - you're fairly safe. If they aren't in court that day, you're safe from having your name splashed in the news.

I'm not sure what site you are looking at for benefit fraud convictions online which give out full residential addresses - I've never come across this. Can you post the link please?

If you are able to offer more about your situation, we may be able to offer better idea but please don't feel you must post about it, it's entirely your choice. Has your mental health had an impact, do you think?

It may not even get as far as the court. An IUC is there for them to present the evidence and you to give your side of the story.

Do you have anyone who can attend the interview with you for support?

I'm not sure what site you are looking at for benefit fraud convictions online which give out full residential addresses - I've never come across this. Can you post the link please?

Yes, I too was shocked to see the house numbers given.

I've just googled and can't seem to find the site. I might try later.

Has your mental health had an impact, do you think?

Not sure. What do you think?

My father abused me. My mother died in my arms. My brothers scammed me. My sisters scammed me. My first wife made it difficult to see my kids after the divorce. I eventually gave up trying. For years I have spent my time locked in my bedroom. I avoid doing anything and everything. I avoid opening letters. I don't wash myself for weeks. I don't take my medicines on time. Sometimes not at all. Sometimes I'll take medicine twice because I forgot I took it. I hate going out. I stay in a seperate bedroom from my wife. I have thought of suicide many times, but then I think of my girls and then resign myself to plod on with this life. I have temper tantrums. I get filled with rage over the daftest of things. I have thought of throwing bricks at shop windows, so I could go to prison for some peace and quiet. I think the human race is a nasty virus and should be exterminated. I don't believe in god anymore. I'm not the slightest bit concerned with money. I don't look at bank statements. I'll start doing a bit of work on the house and then leave it. It's in a total state of dis-repair. I'd be better off in a council house. I'm losing my eyesight. My eyes are permanently sore and bloodshot. I have splitting headaches. My current wife is very understanding. I don't know what I'd do without her. Yet I treat her like sh*t. Should I go on?

I apologise for depressing anyone with my ramblings.

Sandy, have you sought medical help? Please don't think I'm being arrogant or anything, I'm not. it's obvious that your past has had a massive impact on your mental health to this day. i can totally understand you thinking it's easy to just try and get on with things, but there are people and organizations out there that can help people out in your position.

I can imagine how hard it is for your family to see you like this, and for you to feel so bad about treating them bad. I think you should go see a doctor, who can assess you, and this could even help you out in your forthcoming interview. You definitely need to take a first step to get yourself in the right frame of mind.

I hope everything works itself out for you.

Sandy, have you sought medical help? Please don't think I'm being arrogant or anything, I'm not. it's obvious that your past has had a massive impact on your mental health to this day. i can totally understand you thinking it's easy to just try and get on with things, but there are people and organizations out there that can help people out in your position.

 

I can imagine how hard it is for your family to see you like this, and for you to feel so bad about treating them bad. I think you should go see a doctor, who can assess you, and this could even help you out in your forthcoming interview. You definitely need to take a first step to get yourself in the right frame of mind.

 

I hope everything works itself out for you.

Thanks for that skonk.

Yes, I have been seeing a eye specialist for years. They can't help.

I have been recieving councilling at my doctors surgery. That didn't help.

I don't like talking about it. And even if I did, how would that help me? I always think I can read peoples mind and I think I know more than them anyway. I have been on anti-depressants. That did nothing. Made me feel worse. I am a diabetic. I get tired easily. I analyze everything to the point where i'm going round in circles. I can't switch my mind off. I forget things. I daydream. (Yes, it involves me being in control of a spaceship, zapping all the wicked humans).

More details.

Bought my house in 1990 on 40k, interest only, mortgage.

Insured mortgage payments against unemployment/redundancy.

Obtained a loan for home improvements.

Made redundant in 1992

Claimed unemployment benefit.

Gave mortgage details.

Ticked the box that said "is your morgage covered by insurance?"

Ticked the box that said "do you have a home improvement loan?"

The form said that I will be contacted regarding the home improvement loan.

No one contacted me.

I rang them up. Gave them my endowment policies details.

Was told it did not matter.

Asked them about paying the interest on my home improvement loan.

You will be contacted about it, I was informed.

Never heard anything from them again.

Started work again in 1993. Stopped claiming unemployment benefit.

Got a letter in 1994 !!?? "There has been a over-payment to you of the sum of £3,000. Could you arrange a appointment to discuss this"

I rang them. Apparently they had overlooked the tick in the 'covered by insurance' box. They, as well as my insurance had both been paying my mortgage interest.

I told them that they owed me money for the home improvement loan and that I still had to pay my insurance premiums for the redundancy coverage.

I never heard from them again.

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The point of this story? Just to show that I bet these people are losing millions through their own mistakes which they sweep under the carpet.

I wonder if they will still have the paperwork?

I could do with pointing out that we the public can make mistakes also.

Can this information help me?

I'm afraid I can't help with your money situation, but if it's any consolation, I'm also diabetic, and like you, get really tired, to the point of exhaustion. On anti depressants as well, so I totally understand how you must be feeling. It's so difficult to try and not go over things, over and over again, and no amount of people telling you to pull yourself together helps.

If I was you, I'd go back to the doctors again, and explain more in detail on how you're feeling. I did, although at the time, i felt I didn't have to. It took so much weight off my mind to do so. I think you are going to have to have the backing of your doctor to help you face the situation you are in at the moment, as you certainly don't want to be taking a step back, mentally, when they start being all official and harrassing you.

@ skonk,

I came off antidepressants due to them making me feel worse and also read somewhere that a recent study showed that the ones i was taking for years did NOTHING!

How's that for a REAL fraud?

At the interview I am going to say "I am a member of parliament, and also I cannot say anything about money because our national security is at stake"

More Info:

One day, a long time ago, by sheer chance, looking at my bank statement, I noticed my lenders were charging me a lot of money for building and house contents insurance.

I rang around and found someone who could do it for half the price. I decided go go with them.

I rang and cancelled the protection from the first company.

They said they needed it in writing, which I duly sent off.

Rang to confirm they had recieved my letter and then switched insurers.

Done and dusted?

3 years later, by sheer chance, looking at my bank statement, I noticed I was paying money to BOTH insurance companies!!

Rang them up. They said they will investigate. Luckily they found my letter.

They refunded me £1,500. to £2,000 (can't remember exact figure)

Question:

Do I sound like a person who is financially capable?

Would any other normal guy have failed to spot the overpayments for years?

Sandy, I would strongly encourage you to seek the support of welfare rights, to assist you in regard to this investigation. Do you receive incapacity benefit because of your mental health issues? If so then it's likely they will be aware of the position you are in, and the limits of your capabilities of dealing with these issues. I'd also enlist the aid of a letter of support from your GP.

I certainly wouldn't advise going to the IUC alone, as I'm concerned that you may not be quite ready to face that sort of environment alone. (I apologise if that appears patronising). From your previous post I can see why you may have difficulty entrusting in someone for that support, but I sincerely hope you can get the help you need.

If you are finding difficulty managing your affairs, is there anyone that you feel you could trust to be temporarily appointed to deal with a)your financial affairs and b)any dealings with the benfits agency?

Do you receive incapacity benefit because of your mental health issues? If so then it's likely they will be aware of the position you are in, and the limits of your capabilities of dealing with these issues. I'd also enlist the aid of a letter of support from your GP.

Thanks Erika for your support.

I'm not sure what I receive the benefit for, but they do know about both my physical and mental problems.

If you are finding difficulty managing your affairs, is there anyone that you feel you could trust to be temporarily appointed to deal with a)your financial affairs and b)any dealings with the benfits agency?

Just within these days I have told my wife that she needs to deal with everything. She should be ready for the worst. I also have packed a lot of baccy (tobbacco) in my pockets and split lots of matches in two ... in preparation for a few years in jail.

More Info:

I went to my car in the morning to go to work around 2003.

Found my car sat on floor with the wheels missing and scrapes around the bodywork.

Rang my insurance, who had it transported to a garage for repairs.

I told them I would like to choose the replacement alloys and tyres.

They: "What alloys? this car has standard wheels"

Me: "The effing alloys I told you about and made sure you knew about"

They: "We'll have to investigate. Could take 3 months"

Me: "I need the car for work. I'll buy the alloys and tyres and you can pay me back once you confirm that I told you"

2 months later, a letter arrives. "Yes, we are prepared to pay for the alloys and tyres. Please send us the reciepts for re-imbursement"

Amount I had paid was over £400

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All I had to do was post off the reciept which was in my possesion to get back over £400

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Question: What do you think I did?

---

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Answer: NOTHING! (They will have closed that claim down by now)

Don't even think about prison at this point. Easier said than done, I know but try to concentrate on what I said before. An interview under caution does not automatically mean a conviction. They will present the evidence to you and ask for your side of the story. I don't know the specifics of what they hold on you - only the fraud team will know that. There is a lady on here (whose name I will not mention as it wouldn't be fair without asking if she minds first) who had an IUC, the DWP decision maker decided she was guilty and they decided to prosecute.

Now, how it works - the decision maker cannot decide to prosecute - they only decide if a person is guilty of fraud. Fraud requires intent. They send the case to DWP solicitors and they decide whether or not it is worth prosecuting. Now they will only prosecute if they feel certain they can secure a conviction (and a conviction does not mean prison - it just means the court find the defendent guilty and he is given some sort of punishment or a "slapped wrist"). They put this lady's case to court. She was found NOT guilty. And she isn't the only one. Lots of people are cleared, either because the evidence isn't strong enough or because the evidence does not show clear intent.

As I said, fraud requires intent. If your mental health has severely impacted on your ability to manage your affairs, resulting in you failing to declare a material fact during the course of your claim, is that fraud? No. Different of course if you failed to declare it on a form which specifically posed the question, if you selected "no" to capital. Again, I don't have the paticulars. But in any case, if they decide that you are not guilty of fraud, because there was no intent they can still claim back any overpayment of benefit that you were not legally entitled to recieve. They can do this via deductions from your benefit, if you are still entitled to receive any, or if you are not on benefit an area of DWP called "Debt Management" will deal directly with you regarding payment.

Now, back to your wife managing your affairs. If you wish to do this officially, there are two things you could do. If it is solely for benefit purposes, so that she can deal with all of your benefit from now then you need to contact the section which processes your benefit and ask them about your wife becoming an "appointee for benefit purposes". They will discuss it with you, and advise you (and your wife) how to go about it. Your wife can relinquish this at a later date if you become capable again of dealing with your own affairs. If you wish her to deal with all of your affairs, then you should seek legal advice on her becoming a power of attorney. If she becomes your power of attorney, there is no need to seek seperate appointeeship through DWP, although she would need to send verification to the DWP that she is now reponsible for your affairs. From then on, any claim to benefit will be made on your behalf by her. Her signature would be required on all correspondence and only she could discuss your claims. She would also need to attend any medical appointments with you. This is a huge change and will remove a lot of your independence regarding your affairs, so do fully consider it, discussing it with your wife and a legal representative before making any decisions.

Back to your illness. If you have specific needs which require assistance with your care or mobility, have had those needs for three months or more, and are expected to have them for another 6 months or more, you can (and should) make a claim for disability living allowance. You can find more information on it here: Disability Living Allowance - introduction : Directgov - Disabled people

It is payable depending upon your care needs, not your diagnosis, so if you don't class yourself as "disabled" it doesn't matter - you may still qualify. The form is extremely complex, and I would recommend you seek help from welfare rights or CAB (You can find both via your local council, and both are a free service), as claims completed with their assistance have a higher sucess rate first time around. If you qualify and begin to receive DLA, your wife could apply for carers allowance.

I hope this is helpful to you.

PS: I used to smoke "baccy" - was a dab hand at roll ups - on the fags now!

Back to your illness. If you have specific needs which require assistance with your care or mobility, have had those needs for three months or more, and are expected to have them for another 6 months or more, you can (and should) make a claim for disability living allowance.

You have given me good advice that I didn't know about, regarding an appointee. I will find out more. Thanks.

Regarding prison, I'm not joking when I tell you that It doesn't worry me in the slightest. ATM my concern is for any repercussions to my family.

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you can (and should) make a claim for disability living allowance

4 years ago, I was told by a jobcenter employee, who looks after people with disabilities, to apply for this, since I'm entitled, she said.

Me: "Does that involve paperwork? ... No. I'm not going to do it. I can't"

Her: "I will do everything for you"

Me: "Ok, Thank you."

She filled in all the paperwork, gave it to me.

Her: "Get your wife to sign there, and then get her to post it in the prepaid envelope"

Me: "Thank you. I love you"

-----------------

4 Years later, the forms are still sat in my house somewhere.

Within this period I have had more people telling me I should apply.

Thinking of you, sandy.

More Info:

Employer "I want you to go to London for 6 months and run that B&Q electrical contract. You leave every monday 8am, come back friday 1pm"

Me "I don't want to go. I hate hotels"

Employer "You have no choice. We have no one else. You will get £1,500 per week, stay in any hotel you want, all allowances/expenses paid on top"

I went. Did it for 2 months. Resigned.

Question:

How many people you know would do that?

-----------------------------------------

More Info:

I had £40k + invested in shares.

Everywhere there was panick about share prices collapsing.

People were selling shares as fast as they could.

Me? I just left them. Ignored them.

Looked at them a year later. They were worth £13k

Question:

How many people you know would do that?

-----------------------------------------

In case you are wondering why I'm posting this, I'm trying to gather my thoughts here. Maybe I can point the fraud squad to this thread and say "You want to know? Read that!"

why are you so bothered then sandy about the investigation if nothing else faises you...you dont care about other problems you have at the moment...ur address will not be in the paper unless its a real lot of money....sounds like u have no self esteem...ther is more to life then worrying we cannot take our probs with us which is a blssing so lets just see what happens every day is a new one enoy it

kind regards

Thinking of you, sandy.

Thank you noomill

why are you so bothered then sandy about the investigation if nothing else faises you...you dont care about other problems you have at the moment...ur address will not be in the paper unless its a real lot of money....sounds like u have no self esteem...ther is more to life then worrying we cannot take our probs with us which is a blssing so lets just see what happens every day is a new one enoy it

kind regards

I'm not worried about myself kinkyklee.

My very post spells out my two main concerns.

If they decide my claim was wrong.. 6 years of benefits .. won't that be a lot of money?

sandy its only money, your alive, youre a valuable member of society, your loved by your children and family (ok maybe not the ex-wife, but we all konw how people can be in those kinda times). you say your concern is your family so why mention suicide? if you thought about your family it wouldnt cross your mind, please dont ever ever ever ever do this, this is the most selfish thing a human being can do, suicide brings devestation not for the deceased but for all those left behind, imagine the mental torture your kids would go through, mental to the point of physical. imagine the true impact, your kids would be destroyed, their kids would feel the effects and so it would go on and on.

i feel very strongly about this as ive just been to a funeral of a friend aged 39 death by suicide and it hurts like hell, and i am/was a distant friend.

best pleading guilty so you're not being seen to mess the court about but with lots of mitigation so it's arguably debateable if it was absolute wilful fraud

best pleading guilty so you're not being seen to mess the court about but with lots of mitigation so it's arguably debateable if it was absolute wilful fraud

????????? sorry, why say guilty in this scenario unless actually guilty. unless I am misunderstanding response. LL

Hell guys. Unless I've misunderstood, this thread is over a year old. I wonder what the outcome was?

HB

Yes Honeybee , the thread is a year old BUT there are a lot of upset , angry & very worried people in trouble who as guests finding this forum and these threads through Google Searches , even if they joined and commented , they're frightened of LA / DWP Officers & their managers lurking and they will not like forums like these , CAB & Welfare Rights & Solicitors making negative ....though possibly well informed criticisms of their handling of matters and the system in the public domain .

{ If a OP put the outcome on a thread , they've already had their fingers badly burnt and they're scared of more trouble from the DWP / LA's as they'll have their number now and may have them in again if they as much as fail to tell them that they changed their socks . This is not a Sunday School outing ...it's a nasty business . )

{ There are some very nasty , petty & vindictive people about but that is their problem and others should not dragged down to their level and rise above it ? . } }

This is because they want people on their patch to not know the rules of the game so if you've any gumption you find out what the rules are . The kindest thing you can say is that there is a lot of pressure from well way on high and too much politics with or without a small " p " . With all this Dickensian hysterical stuff in the likes of The Sun and Daily Mail ....there will be a lot of managers running round like headless chickens sounding like neurotic old women ...handwringing .

Even if Officers handled things badly and acted in a over zealous manner , their managers would be terrified of counter Harassment & Bullying charges if they were taken to task and the Officers breaking ranks . By all means catch people but do not turn everything into a three part melodrama and lay things on far too thick ,

their senior managers are not lawyers and their Officers are merely dangerous amateur Prosecuting Solicitors . They need over zealous officers to make them feel safe in their position , they're hardly likely to offer to be made redundant in this age of austerity and cuts , are they ?

They will try and get the Courts to draw inferences on very weak , contradictory grounds begging more questions than answers . Even if a accused person challenged them , Magistrates wouldn't like it at the worst and at best it'll be six of one and half a dozen of the other as you need to have the absolute moral high ground to challenge them . They'll think you're bitter which is understandable , are too anti everything amd increase the sentence to teach you a lesson to " button up your mouth " .

They ( LA / DWP Officers ) don't care about who and who isn't " really guilty " , all they're bothered about is bonuses and brownie points to impress these managers who don't really manage .

If it's on their web site that we got Tracy Pramface from a sink estate on probation and community service for fiddling ....they'll say it's good propaganda and it may frighten someone who is on the fiddle to withdraw their claim thus preventing fraud rather than catching fraudsters .

It doesn't matter if you have 57 varieties of mitigating reasons for failing to disclose a material fact ...if you've not disclosed or failed to fill out a form properly you have acted dishonestly . The law is very black and white , there are no grey areas ....it's also an ass too ! but that's just unfortunate . If you plead not guilty and are found guilty , your sentence will increase by a third to teach people a lesson for " messing them about " .

The other danger is if you plead not guilty no matter how well intentioned or principled , there's a danger of ending up in a Crown Court , they are very intimidating places and their prosecuting solicitors could make Mother Teresa look like a bare faced evil liar and a Judge looking for the limelight .

A first time offender a ill 52 year old man got 9 months for benefit fraud in Scotland because the Judge wanted brownie points and a report in The Daily Mail or Sun , luckily there has been Court of Appeal cases because sentences are so disparate but he still had to do time in a hole filled with the worst of the worst . So as bad as lay magistrates are better to hold your hand there ? .

I also agree that Corporate fraud , dodgy self employed cash job tax fiddles and avoidance which is skirting round the law at best is worse than benefit fraud .

Yes you can have mitigating reasons , but there is the danger of annoying magistrates by having a solicitor or CAB / WR case worker waffling on too much . All you can do is damage limitation , and not be branded as some petty amateur crook , some sort of chancer with a chip on your shoulder that takes the micky out of and fiddles the system as a way of life or Del Boy / Arthur Daley . It's a result , better a quarter of a loaf than no loaf at all ?

....chances are you'll get your knuckles rapped but you don't have to do porridge , go on community punishment clearing litter with all the local nutters that are beyond redemption , there'll be habitual criminals , that are hardened and obsessed with punishment who know without good representation they'll be inside , or being on a curfew or having to see a probation officer that's way overloaded with bad problematic cases for two years .

So better to hold your hand up and get the horrible thing over and done with and even if you get a stiff fine ...you won't have to have anything more to do with them again ....within reason .