Hello Folks,

Apologies I have been offline for a while, things have been difficult with mum due to some personal issues and while continuing to deal with her affairs at present, we would appreciate some advice.

The situation is mum owes substantial amounts in unsecured credit card debt and has been paying up until very recently when she simply ran out of savings. Her income since medically retired from work in the late 90's was made up solely of benefits and any money she has had as savings came from the sale of her last home. Truthfully, this dwindled to nothing simply paying the CC bills each month.

She was diagnosed with PTSD at the time of retirement and her doctor recently stated that he would support the fact that she will never return to work. This was after us explaining the situation she faces. He is also very willing to support us in anyway he can, with letters to the creditors etc.

In the last month a major incident happened in our personal lives and it has sent mum spiralling. Her doctor has prescribed a big step up in her meds to try to calm her down as she is just not able to cope with this other issue. We have been keeping as much as possible from her surrounding her debts and have her written authorisation to allow us to deal with things on her behalf.

As things stand, we wrote to each of her creditors initially, explaining her finanical circumstances and medical conditions, and included her doctors name and address, inviting them to confirm things by making contact with him directly. As part of this letter, we asked them to consider writing the debts off, given her previous good payment history (for what that was worth) and the fact that she is never likely to return to work. Her only asset is her home, which is in negative equity and likely to remain so for a very long time.

As a response they have all sent a standard letter, none acknowledging the one sent to them, other than to say they are sorry to hear she is experiencing financial difficulty.

EGG have stated they need a payment plan set up with a formal agency such as CCCS.

BC have said the same, giving two weeks from their letter before they will ask Mercers to issue a Default Notice.

The CCCS, even though she has £135 surplus per month available (but only because she is including her DLA in the calculations, which as I understand she cant be forced to do - although we suggested she should if it helps get a DMP set up), cannot help - typically suggested bankrupcy or negotiating with creditors directly.

Trying to get CAB involved, but getting an appointment with a money advisor isnt easy as many of you know.

Have offered EGG a pro-rata amount of this figure, putting a condition in the offer that they freeze and future interest and charges. Made it clear to them that at present we have no other assistance from a formal agency so its take it from us, or take £1 per month and we will remove her DLA from her calculations.

Their reply was a letter (which I am hoping was a cross-over letter, although was 7 days from the previous) stating that she is in serious arrears and no mention of our offer.

BC & the others have been sent no offers, because at this stage I dont know how best to proceed.

We read on the CAB website that with her intervention, it may be possible to have unsecured debt written off, if the mental illness is so bad that the client is unlikely to ever clear the debt due to being unable to return to work etc.

Can anyone offer examples when this has been possible and also how they went about dealing with the situation?

As it stands, everyone has been CCA'd & SAR'd & CPR letter 1'd on her behalf.

Only 'agreement' has been EGG, and it was the 'approved limit' job, with a very odd signature date and was one of the 2007 Terminated accounts. We wrote to EGG asking for an explanation of both and after almost 3 months, their response to the complaint was that they have been unable to respond! and we can now take things to the FOS!

BC have sent nothing - no cca, just some recent statements. In fact, the letter with the SAR states that they have nothing more than what they have sent. However, this was a previous Monument card, so could there be more that they might be able to access?

Had application forms back from her other creditors, without the prescribed terms.

Two of her other creditors had her listed as 'retired' at application and on benefits as her only source of income. Payplan have stated that this is irresponsible lending and the FOS/OFT (not sure which) could intervene in these situations and get the debt written off.

With her other creditors it isnt so clear what she said at application stage - could have been anything and as her credit history was always good, she got the credit with no other searches to confirm her standing. She got sent flyers for cards and just applied for them, with little understanding of what she letting herself in for. We actually think she has some form of Bi-polar disorder (although it is getting confused with the depression she is suffering, and it is something we need to discuss with her GP as its just an assumption) although it would explain the spending for no rhyme or reason.

Dont get me wrong, she didnt live the highlife, the money went on very little. In saying all of that, they have had their pound of flesh out of her she has most certainly paid back what she spent - with interest!

Our concern is that if we state she was retired at the time of application (and without seeing her applications from two of her creditors to know what she said), that they might have a different story and treat her as a fraudulant client, which is just not the case.

But you can understand our fear I am sure.

Bottomline, she is not well, not likely to be well again anytime in the future and relies solely on benefits for her income. Its mental illness, so she cant understand or remember correctly what she said yesterday, never mind years ago. She also is very scared because she thinks they will take her home, which we cannot reassure her about as we simply dont know either (they shouldnt, but will they try?)

The major incident that happened this month has set her back no end and we can provide evidence of this to her creditors if need be as it was in the public eye.

Dont even start me on our own situation - who knows is my best answer at present - she is our top priority.

Any advice or suggestions would be so much appreciated as always.

Meerkat xx

Sorry, cant help with examples- but bumping the thread for you.

Post 80 on this thread by pt2537 could be worth a read.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/185292-monkey_uk-hsbc-cca-g-4.html#post2259204

You are quite within your rights to stop paying any bank'agency who cannot produce a copy of a credit agreement. For those debts that have to be paid, I would ask the doctor for a referal to a mental health advocate. They can act on behalf of your Mum and they have access to other specialists eg money advisers, who help people who are mentally ill. It also means there is something official going to banks/DCAs from the mental health services to show your Mum is a genuine case. This is stressful time for any family and there is help out there if you ask for it.

Thanks Noomill,

Ill have a read at that now, thanks for stopping by.

meerkat x

Good luck and best wishes to your Mum.

Thanks Pinky,

Her doctor has not mentioned this as yet, I guess we should suggest it to him.

I read some of the online notes for the mental health professionals and debt, the sad thing is that they dont seem to be able to do much other than get in touch with CAB/CCCS on her behalf. But I agree something in wirting from them looks more official than our words.

meerkat x

Thank u noomill x

Hi Meerkat,

Sorry to hear what your Mum & you are going through and unfortunately I haven't got a solution for you.

My OH suffers with Bi-Polar which was diagnosed a year ago, and its a hard condition to deal with, for all. Do speak to her GP if you think she does have BP, because if they are treating her for depression they may need to change her meds, meds for depression can have an adverse affect if she has BP. She should also be referred to a specialist.

Regarding dealing with her debt. My OHs mental health worker wrote to all his creditors, while most of them were quite good accepting token payments, unfortunately 2 of them after a few months passed to DCAs. I have to say the DCAs are cretins and have no understanding, they have done the usual calling, threat-o-grams & text messages. I have now requested CCAs, rec'd 1 non compliant, the other nothing, but the calls etc have stopped.

I would persist with CCA requests and get a letter from her specialist (if she has one) or GP, you never know they may write off her debt, especially if they don't have CCAs. If she has a mental health worker, they may or may not know how to deal with debt being written off. I know my OHs health worker can't help us regarding this matter, but I have CAG to help me deal with it now;)

I dont want to finish on a pessimistic note, so just to let you know, they do write off debts sometimes, a friends Sister was diagnosed with psyzophrenia and all here debts were written off, with just a letter from her Sister.

All I can say is get your Mum all the medical help she needs and try and be involved with the Doctor's & health workers as much as you can. People who suffer with BP don't always see things as they are, or don't want to discuss reality. She may not mention to them about her debt and how it's affecting her, that's where you come in. They can write letters and are happy to help, their main concern will be your Mums state of mind and they will also support you too.

I feel for you - what you are going through isn't easy, I know as I was in a bad place this time last year. I'm sending big ((((hugs)))) to you and your mum and wish her well.

If I do find out anything useful along the way I will let you know. In the meantime keep us posted on what's happening as I'm sure there are many people here who will be able to help.

Take care:)

Thanks Pinky,

 

Her doctor has not mentioned this as yet, I guess we should suggest it to him.

 

I read some of the online notes for the mental health professionals and debt, the sad thing is that they dont seem to be able to do much other than get in touch with CAB/CCCS on her behalf. But I agree something in wirting from them looks more official than our words.

 

meerkat x

Hi Meerkat,

*hugs*

Did you send the letters on behalf of your Mum, signed by her, or are you acting for her and taking control of her affairs? If she's not capable of handling the debts then use the latter and be firm. It's not difficult to do and having the Doctors support will help.

Keep all records of any pestering for payment whilst you are sorting this out.

Any allegations of fraud would put the onus on the lender to prove and they are hardly likely to do that considering the circumstances. They'd fall at the first hurdle..your Mum is not well and any assets she has are not worth the fight as she is in negative equity. What would they possibly gain?

Give your Mum a big hug and be there for her.

I got Lloyds to write off a debt for my daughter who has mental health problems. She banked with them and they knew she was only on benefits when they issued a credit card for £1000 limite. I had them on irresponsible lending. If those who are saying that she filled out the application that she was on benefits try doing the same. I would request copies of all agreements and see exactly what they have. I suspect most of those mentioned will only have application forms.

Alternatively, could you not consider bankruptcy given the circumstances?

Best wishes with however you proceed.

Thank you Joemay, Crapstone and Surprise,

Your responses and thoughts are much appreciated.

In terms of bankrupcy, it isnt an option. If her home would be at all threatened, we cant really consider it.

Having thought originally about a dmp situation, and not had our initial attempts to set this up work, we are in two minds, simply because so many of the creditors have no CCA or an unenforceable one. In fact, one one creditor had anything like an enforceable document, and they have just paid cleared that account with PPi re-claim (another fight we have atm!).

In terms of the fraud, Crapstone I agree - what can they gain? But like we see everyday on CAG, creditors are unlawful and just dont care, so our fear is that they try to cause mum more harm, simply by going through the motions of threats of court action or criminal action. Would a doctors letter explaining that she was ill at the time (and also not receiving any treatment at the time of all these applications) in this instance be enough to knock back such actions?

One of her creditors especially has been silly about their lending, and I believe we have them in the right place to be able to get them to write the debt off. I suspect their lack of response to my letters shows that they know this also.

I guess with so many things we do, its trying to draw things to a conclusion to our satisfaction. So many of these things (if the creditors could get their way) would continue and follow us to the end of our days. Mum just isnt in a place to cope with things much further.

She has talked about suicide in the past, but not recently. We had discussed mentioning this in the correspondance with her creditors but she got so fearful that she might get locked up in a psychiatric unit for the rest of her days that she begged us not to.

Im glad to know others are dealing with similar situations and surviving, Thank God. And Thank God for CAG and all you good people here.

meerkat x

Hi Meerkat,

Regarding anyone making allegations of fraud, if she has mental health issues they won't even go there & as already has been mentioned by crapstone they have to prove it.

Get a letter of to all the creditors informing them that you are dealing with everything on behalf of her, & letter supporting this, from her Dr, that way they will have to leave her in peace. If they do start contacting her then start complaining to all and sundry, FOS, OFT, TS and local & national press if need be.

Meerkate I am a novice when it comes to dealing with debt, but I am becoming an expert when dealing with someone you love, who has mental health issues. Any support I can give you let me know.

Thinking of you

Joemay

Hi Meerkatsmimm,

So sorry to hear about your Mum's problems. Good job she has you to help her

Please be assured they wouldn't "lock her up" for having suicidal thoughts in the past. They will only "section" anyone if they are considered to be a current danger to themselves or others.

These firms are despicable. You might have a good case for irresponsible lending here. Your Mum can't be held responsible for her actions if she had mental illness, so don't worry about fraud.

Take a look here: May be worth reporting her case to The Guardian Money people...

Keep your chin up

Hugs

Elsa xxxx

Thanks Elsa and thank you again JoeMay,

The Guardian really helped out that chappy by the sounds of things, my only issue is that they would want a story out of it and mum has enough going on atm without that happening.

Having said that I will send them an e-mail, thanks for pointing the link out.

Joemay, I understand where you are coming from. I get scared for her because in the last year she started to shop in charity shops, buying bits and pieces and everything is hung in the wardrobe - she never wears it.

She tends to wear the same outfit for weeks and rarely thinks about showering. Its made more difficult because her own mother has altzimers (spelling!) and has fallen into the same trap of wearing something familiar for weeks and not bathing adequately. Mum thinks granny is ok, that she makes sure she is clean, but doesnt need a shower every day.

The problem is days turn into weeks.

Her flat is packed, floor to ceiling, with bits and pieces. Mostly secondhand, some from our old family home. She has just about enough space to get into her bed and sleep. The rest of the room is filled with junk.

Her bathroom is the same.

When we draw things to her attention and suggest we sort them, she goes off at the deep end with us, saying there is nothing wrong.

She has an old car that my hubby tries to keep clean for her when we see her. But it is pigging dirty inside and out and because she smokes there is ash everywhere.

I just feel sick for her. She was such a young woman when she was widowed in quite a violent way, and I know deep down she hoped for better at this time of her life.

And in the midst of all of that, she could run into someone she knows from years ago and say everything is just dandy, great feeling being a grandmother etc. Im sure up until recently she wasnt being very open with her doctor either, although I know that is now different.

So, hubby and me need to do what we can, and hopefully get these debts of hers blitzed and then start to work on her getting her life back together again.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

meerkat x

I agree with joemay. Report them under their Credit Licence terms and keep complaining and disputing. It's not looking too good for them if they are harrassing a person that is ill and making their condition worse.

Getting the support of an MP might help and there is nothing wrong with 'threatening' exposure of your Mums situation. It wouldn't sit well with the creditors, CCA or not.

It must be really difficult for all of you, so make use of any help that is offered and also take care of yourself. She is one lucky lady to have such a caring daughter and son-in-law.

*hugs*

Thank you Crapstone,

Such a late at night/early in the morning post, Ive been there myself!

CAB have got in touch so going to start with them. OFT put you straight through to Consumer Direct, who from past experience are not much help at all (felt like I was getting told off by a teacher when I started talking about my creditors non-compliance with CCA request!)

Agree that we should perhaps use our local MP and a veiled threat of the media aswell.

I assume when the write the debt off, they still get a tax break to the same value, so they are really at no loss?

Thanks again,

meerkat x

Hi meerkat,

Informing the local MP is a great idea. You need as many on your side and the MP is there to serve his constituants and if anyone needs serving its your mum.

I haven't had any dealings with OFT (yet) but I think you should lodge a complaint. If they start the "Teacher" attitude, tell them you didn't contact them for a moral judgement on debt, your complaining the way the creditors are dealing with a fragile mental patient incorrectly, that's what they are there for!

Its good to see that your Mum is being straight with her doctor, this way she'll get all the medical help she needs and slowly but surely she will start to recover.

Your Mum is lucky to have you & your husband, there are so many people out there who are not so lucky.

Take care & sending you (((Hugs)))

Joemay

Consumerline (OFT) dont think they can help, which was as we thought.

CAB in Northern Ireland no longer offer any advice over the phone, we have to go into a drop-in centre between 9-30 and 12-30 am and we will be seen if the debt advisor has time.

Is that correct?

I thought we had to make an appointment to see a money advisor, its pretty hit or miss depending on how busy they will be.

The guardian is the next move then!

meerkat x

Hi Meerkatsmimm,

Check out 42man's and my post on this thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/212406-1st-credit-asking-medical-2.html

Consumerline (OFT) dont think they can help, which was as we thought.

 

CAB in Northern Ireland no longer offer any advice over the phone, we have to go into a drop-in centre between 9-30 and 12-30 am and we will be seen if the debt advisor has time.

 

Is that correct?

 

I thought we had to make an appointment to see a money advisor, its pretty hit or miss depending on how busy they will be.

 

The guardian is the next move then!

 

meerkat x

Yes meerkat that's correct. You probably won't see a money advisor when you do go, just they'll take details and arrange an appointment. Whilst the CAB do some wonderful works, they helped us out at the first stages but they are limited to what they can do. You may find that you end up taking everything over 6 months down the line to fight all this yourself. It maybe worth going, sorting out an appointment and find out exactly what they can do for your mum.

Joemay

Hi Meerkatsmimm,

Check out 42man's and my post on this thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/212406-1st-credit-asking-medical-2.html

HI Elsa,

That looks interesting haven't noticed that thread, I'll have a look at that also.

Thanks

Joemay

It might be worth checking somebody like Grant Thorntons (an IP) try them here

http://www.grant-thornton.co.uk/locations.aspx[url=http://www.grant-thornton.co.uk/locations.aspx][/url] in respect of your

house issue and possible bankruptcy. You should be able to get a free appointment with them to discuss the matter and they'll advise you whether or not Bankruptcy is a viable proposition and also the situation regarding the property. It may be that your mother won't have to sell it if it's in negative equity...my thinking for that is that it will simply increase the debt so why would it be actioned?

Good luck in your situation.

Thank you folks,

CAB tomorrow and see how we get on.

Deb T Bankrupcy just isnt an option and to be honest, having read articles like those posted by Elsa, I dont see why mum needs to be put through those hoops. They can and do write off debts, its just how we channel this to them. But thank you for your guidance.

Elsa, I posted on the other thread about what I thought of that document - shocking.

meerkat x

I have been advised that if your property is in negative equity you won't be made to sell it. However, bankrupcy files can be held open for 5 years or until such time as the property comes back into equity.

Hey BBNB,

I agree, and its that point that leaves my mums home in doubt - its her own 'security' in her life, and she certainly never took out any secured debt, so the creditors arent entitled to it!

God bless those that do loose their homes, nightmare.

You have to decide what's best for you/your mum. There's lots of threads on here to read and help you. You can 1) put together a robust I&E form (note that no-one can tell you how much you should spend on food. The I&E should not mean a substantial loss in quality of life). You can divide any remainder pro rate and offer that to the creditors. You can start paying this even if they keep rejecting it. On this you can stay firm in the knowledge that anyone taking legal redress will not be made to pay more than they can afford. OR 2) you can apply for the CCA and if found to be non compliant put the debts into dispute and legitimately stop paying them until such time as a compliant CCA form is produced in which case you can proceed to point 1). Only you can decide what works for you and your mum but whatever you decide to do you will lots of guidance from people here and support. Knowing your rights gives you the choice. Neither choice is easy but once you've decided what is best you should remain resolute in the face of the DCAs who will play nasty regardless. Also, don't ignore what comes through the door. post up here and get the advidce you'll need even if it's only to confirm what you already suspected! Good luck. Why not write to Anne W. !!!!too! http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/213289-read-daily-express-aug.html