I have recently been given 2 pcn's for parking outside the width of a resident parking bay.

One ticket has been recinded but the other is an ongoing issue.

I have contacted the local council over concerns of the width of the 2 bays concerned and am currently in the middle of that national sport called getting the council to answer!

The bay is 2.1 m wide but on measuring other council bays they are 2.4-2.5 m wide but one department member has agreed with me that they should be wider....he even informed me that a supermarket bay has a minimum reccommended width of 2.5m

My question is does any one know where i can get the reccommended are sited side by side rather than nose to tail?

Many thanks in anticipation of any information forthcoming.

take an online look at TSRGD 1032 and 1033, these are the drawings for parking bay dimensions.

To save you looking it up 1.8 meters minimum; 2.7 metres maximum.

Although narrower than others around you, the bay width is lawful.

To save you looking it up 1.8 meters minimum; 2.7 metres maximum.

 

Although narrower than others around you, the bay width is lawful.

1.8 metres minimum!

My BMW3 is 1.817 metres wide and 2.013 metres wide including the door mirrors. Although this is not a mini car, it's hardly the biggest car in the world either. How should anyone with a car wider than about 1.4 metres (is there any cars narrower than this?) manage to park in a bay 1.8mtr wide and still be able to get out of the car?

1.8 metres minimum!

 

My BMW3 is 1.817 metres wide and 2.013 metres wide including the door mirrors. Although this is not a mini car, it's hardly the biggest car in the world either. How should anyone with a car wider than about 1.4 metres (is there any cars narrower than this?) manage to park in a bay 1.8mtr wide and still be able to get out of the car?

My local Council was taken to the adjudicator on a similar argument as the drivers car was a biggish 4x4 and did not fit in the bay....the adjudicator suggested he buy a smaller car appeal rejected!

My local Council was taken to the adjudicator on a similar argument as the drivers car was a biggish 4x4 and did not fit in the bay....the adjudicator suggested he buy a smaller car appeal rejected!

A "biggish 4x4" could have an understandable problem, but on a bay 1800mm wide then the gap on either side of a few "normal" size cars would be:-

Vauxhall Astra, 1753mm wide, gap 23mm each side

Ford Focus, 1840mm wide, NO GAP, 20mm too wide each side

Renault Megane, 1942mm wide, NO GAP, 71mm too wide each side

Vauxhall Corsa, 1646mm wide, 77mm gap each side

Nissan Micra, 1660mm wide, 120mm gap each side

The above cars could hardly be classed as "big cars" yet the best gap if the car is parked in the centre of the bay is 120mm (4.7inches) for the Micra. As you must assume the car parked next to you may be close up to their side of the bay line, then I defy anyone to be able to open a door 4.7inches and be able to get out to the vehicle!

A "biggish 4x4" could have an understandable problem, but on a bay 1800mm wide then the gap on either side of a few "normal" size cars would be:-

 

Vauxhall Astra, 1753mm wide, gap 23mm each side

Ford Focus, 1840mm wide, NO GAP, 20mm too wide each side

Renault Megane, 1942mm wide, NO GAP, 71mm too wide each side

Vauxhall Corsa, 1646mm wide, 77mm gap each side

Nissan Micra, 1660mm wide, 120mm gap each side

 

The above cars could hardly be classed as "big cars" yet the best gap if the car is parked in the centre of the bay is 120mm (4.7inches) for the Micra. As you must assume the car parked next to you may be close up to their side of the bay line, then I defy anyone to be able to open a door 4.7inches and be able to get out to the vehicle!

I was not saying the bay was big enough just stating that if within the legal size claiming your car was too big is not a viable defence.

I was not saying the bay was big enough just stating that if within the legal size claiming your car was too big is not a viable defence.

Of course it must become a viable defence if the bay reaches a size that a car that is accepted as a "normal size" or "average size" i.e. a car that the majority of people drive and is not just an indulgent "big" car, cannot reasonably park in the the given bay.

What happens if the manufacturers actually stop making cars less than about 1700mm wide, would you agree that the magistrate should accept that because you have bought one of these "new" cars, you cannot park in a car park with bays of 1800mm width? Give it a few years of course and these "new" cars would become the norm in the second hand market and ultimately become the only cars avaialbe on the road. Great! we'll have an empty car park then, or worse still, the council would have a field day marking the bays as 1800mm wide then ticketing every car that parks there coz they wouldn't fit in the bay properly!

Of course it must become a viable defence if the bay reaches a size that a car that is accepted as a "normal size" or "average size" i.e. a car that the majority of people drive and is not just an indulgent "big" car, cannot reasonably park in the the given bay.

 

What happens if the manufacturers actually stop making cars less than about 1700mm wide, would you agree that the magistrate should accept that because you have bought one of these "new" cars, you cannot park in a car park with bays of 1800mm width? Give it a few years of course and these "new" cars would become the norm in the second hand market and ultimately become the only cars avaialbe on the road. Great! we'll have an empty car park then, or worse still, the council would have a field day marking the bays as 1800mm wide then ticketing every car that parks there coz they wouldn't fit in the bay properly!

A bay is designed to allow a car to park on a street legally and still allow free passage of traffic, no one has even mentioned car parks so I cannot see why you have mentioned them? If people want to buy humungous cars like porsche cayennes or hummers that block half the street when parked are you suggesting that allowing them to park takes priority over being able to drive down the street? The roads and bays are already in place if car manufacturers are stupid enough to build cars too wide for the roads then drivers are even dafter buying them. Surely being able to park a car should be a consideration when selecting a model along with fuel consumption, engine size etc. Just because a model is made because some markets have wide open spaces and empty roads doesn't mean its suitable for driving and parking in our congested cities.

The bay is 2.1 m wide but on measuring other council bays they are 2.4-2.5 m wide but one department member has agreed with me that they should be wider....he even informed me that a supermarket bay has a minimum reccommended width of 2.5m

no one has even mentioned car parks so I cannot see why you have mentioned them?

I believe the OP mentioned them as indicated above, as I am not aware of supermarkets using onstreet parking.

The roads and bays are already in place if car manufacturers are stupid enough to build cars too wide for the roads then drivers are even dafter buying them. Surely being able to park a car should be a consideration when selecting a model along with fuel consumption, engine size etc. Just because a model is made because some markets have wide open spaces and empty roads doesn't mean its suitable for driving and parking in our congested cities.

I believe the OP mentioned them as indicated above, as I am not aware of supermarkets using onstreet parking.

 

I am well aware of your anti-car stance throughout the forums G&M so will not comment further in that regard.

The OP got his ticket in a residents bay the supermarket wa jusst a passing comment concerning a remark he had been told. There is no legal size for car park bays as they are off street and do not have to fit within the constraints of a street. I hardly consider making sure there is enough room to drive down a street past parked cars is 'anti car' but you are entitled to your opinion.

I share a drive (situated between our Garages) with my neighbour.

However - As I do not require the use of my drive, (and to prevent others from using it), I intend to place a fence around it, and using the drive space as an extension to my garden.

Will I be allowed to do this.

The Shared drive is 15ft wide, and I intend to ensure that the neighbour has at least 7.5ft.

Do I have to inform the local council of my intentions.

Does 'parking outside a bay' refer to the wheels or the total dimensions of the vehicle? i.e. if the bumper was overhanging the bays lines would that be classed as in infringement?

Yorky.

Where a PCN is served for failing to park wholly within bay markings then there is a defence that got accepted at TPT (edit...sorry I meant a No Contest form was submitted by the Council to TPT).

It is based on regulation 18(1)(a) of Statutory Instrument 1996/2489

The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 (No. 2489) - Statute Law Database

18. (1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road

You can argue that if the traffic order requires a vehicle to be parked correctly within the bay markings then due to regulation 18(1)(a) of S.I 1996/2489 the council has a statutory duty to ensure that a traffic sign that adequately conveys this effect is placed on or near the road to make this information available to motorists. As neither the bay marking nor the traffic sign placed, adequately conveyed that you must park wholly within a bay marking, the council failed in their statutory duty and thus the PCN should be cancelled.

good point. and well stated.

It's an interesting defence to use and quite flexible.

For example, signage might convey that parking is reserved for "resident permit holders only" but often a PCN is served to permit holders who neglected to display their permit (code 12's) as the order dictates that a permit must be displayed in the relevant position. However, there is no signage available that can adequately convey this effect of the order (that the permit must be displayed in the relevant position). I've never seen any signage advising that permit holders must display their permits in accordance with the order.

Reg 18 however is quite clear that the council must place traffic signs as to the effect of the order.

I agree. there are lots of 'missing signs'.

I agree. there are lots of 'missing signs'.

Indeed. Code's 12, 14, 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 27 (within London), 40, 04,05, 07, 09, 10, 19, 24, and 63 would struggle to find prescribed signage that gives effect to the contravention.

It is also the order that informs that to park in contravention will result in the issue of a penalty charge but I've yet to see an on street traffic sign convey this effect.

Echoes of the cover up that went on with TMA implementation. fertile ground I think.

What I'd like to know is, What is the minimum allowed width of a public Pay and Display parking bay (Not super market etc). I've seen somewhere on the net that it is 1.62meters, and yet I hear people saying different. I want to know for sure cos I know where there are several areas in Nottingham that are below the 1.62m and I just want to park there to **** the council off!

Never mind guys. I just found this. It mentions the ' Traffic Signs Regulations 1994. Schedule 6'. .parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/LET656.pdf .. Parking bays on public carriageways must be 1.8 meters MINIMUM! Guess where I'm parking the car later..LOL

Are you talking about a bay along the carrigeway or within a council car park?

The measurement you have found I believe relates to bays that are painted along the carrigeway. I'm not sure if there is any definition of the width of a bay within a car park.

Never mind guys. I just found this. It mentions the ' Traffic Signs Regulations 1994. Schedule 6'. .parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/LET656.pdf .. Parking bays on public carriageways must be 1.8 meters MINIMUM! Guess where I'm parking the car later..LOL

The TSRGD 1994 no longer exists BTW.

Whilst you may think you are being very clever with your scheme ultimately you will lose out. The Council will still enforce the bay even though you consider it too narrow, so you could end up with at least one PCN. You may get it cancelled but there is no certainty in that and you could be out of pocket. The Council will not lose out as you will have to spend your own time and money trying to avoid paying the PCN whilst the Council staff get paid to deal with you letters. No one at the Council cares if you win or lose they just go into work deal with the letters and go home and get a check at the end of the month. So I cannot really see any point in what you are doing, spending a couple of hours of your time fighting an avoidable PCN which you could end up paying just to save a few £ in parking fees would seen rather foolish but then again its your life no one elses.

The TSRGD 1994 no longer exists?? Damn. I could have had some fun. Never mind!