Update coming soon

Do you have a transcript of the disciplinary hearing or a letter from them stating that they agree that your son made the declaration in good faith?

Thread moved to Employment Forum, hopefully for more advice.

Hi letterman, can you type up or scan a photo of (leaving all personal details out, your son's and theirs):

the Particulars of claim

and

the paragraph in the contract that relates to deductions from salary.

Also, how long was the training course and how far did he travel.

Roughly what is the amount claimed?

I'm guessing that they are claiming that in the contract it states if he left or was sacked he would be liable for costs. Some contracts only state costs can only be recovered if the employee leaves within the first 12 months etc.

If they have admitted and agree that your son made the declaration in good faith then it could be seen as their policy, not your son's declaration which was the reason for his dismissal. However this is all circumstantial without knowing what the contract states.

If the case is defended and the claim is for a fixed amount of money, the case will be transferred automatically by the court to the defendant’s local court (if the defendant is an individual not a company).

I will host copies of the documents tomorrow.

Thanks for the replies.

Pulled

Am I also right in saying that my son can acknowledge receipt of the court papers and get a further 14 days to prepare his defence?

yes, acknowledge with defend claim in full, this will allow a further 14 days.

Im just reding the docs, I cant see any part that allows deductions for training costs as of yet. will reply asap

The particulars of claim are not court papers, have you actually recieved court papers from the court?

Paragrapth 16 does not mention training cost at all, unless im blind. If they are relying on paragraph 16 then they dont have a case. As your son worked there for 3 months then the training was useful to them and therefore there was no pecuniary costs as they dont specify a length of time they consider the trainig costs obsolved.

As for contacting the poilce, they might but they know that the declaration was made in good faith(which declarations are always made) and they(employer) accept it as it was made that way(tho your son has no proof) but the police are not stupid. It is a phone shop where no theft etc has taken place and once explained to them (if it ever came to that) they probably would let it go. Let us know once you have acknowledged the claim (if its real)

Version 302003, yes we have received court papers, they just contained a brief summary of the Particulars of claim that I hosted to be viewed.

Should I correspond with the employer further requesting documents etc for the defence against their claim?

To acknowledge receipt of the court papers and declare that he is going to defend does he just phone the court?

Thanks to all.

what court were the papers filed? if it was mcol (northampton) then you can acknowledge online (it will give you a link and password to do that) if not you would have received a form with the claim for you to acknowledge and there will be a box to tick on it which to defend the case in full.

get that in and you can start requesting docs under the cpr rules

To request docs from employer (alter to suit):

In the XXXXXXX County Court

xxxxx V xxxxx

Claim Number: xxxxx

Dear Sir / Madam

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION UNDER PART 18 CPR

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. Your particulars of claim are very vague and in addition you do not disclose the contract upon which this claim is being based.

In order to file a defence and any counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an application will be made for an Order enforcing your compliance under the provisions of the CPR

If it becomes necessary to make an application for an order forcing your compliance I shall ask the court to consider my costs as well

1. XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

2. XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

Yours faithfully

It was filed at Stoke On Trent County Court. I will get my son to complete and post the papers tomorrow.

I will also use the letter template to request the supporting documentation.

Thanks once again Version302003 it certainly helps to have someone walk me through this process. i think along with the supporting documentation I request from his former employer I will include a request for his personel records, this will support the fact that they benefited from his traing and employment as he was the top sales person in the branch.

Can anyone tell me the exact definition of the phrase "pecuniary loss".

I will post the letter I intend to use for defence once complied.

Have a great New Years Eve.

Pecuniary loss is the damage that is capable of being directly calculated in money terms. The commonest example is loss of earnings, both actual and future, but it includes all other expenses attributable to the tort, such as medical expenses, travelling expenses, the cost of special equipment or of employing someone to carry out domestic duties which the claimant is no longer able to perform, or loss of pension rights.

Pecuniary loss is the damage that is capable of being directly calculated in money terms. The commonest example is loss of earnings, both actual and future, but it includes all other expenses attributable to the tort, such as medical expenses, travelling expenses, the cost of special equipment or of employing someone to carry out domestic duties which the claimant is no longer able to perform, or loss of pension rights.

So is the company claiming the training costs as pecuniary loss?

Also is it possible to claim for loss of earning for both my so and myself if this goes to court?

yes it looks like the company are trying to claim the training costs as pecuniary loss. However they state in their POC that the conditions of employment allows for them to recover due to false declarations but I dont see any wording to that effect in the conditions of employment in paragragh 16.

As far as I can see and read, if an employer wants to recoup training costs then there should be a seperate agreement signed before the start of training setting out the conditions if it ever becomes repayable. ie if the employee is dismissed or leaves within 12 months.

As they don't specify the conditions when they can recover the training costs then who is to say that 3 months service isn't an acceptable length of service. According to their thinking they could try and recover costs if he had been there 20 years under pecuniary loss which is rediculous.

Just out of interest, how long in days was his training?

Your son can claim for litigant in person but I don't think you can (unless you are a qualified legal expert). The LIB amount i think is £9.30 per hour (normally around 10 hours research).

In your letter to them make sure you get an exact breakdown of costs for the training as they haven't provided that in the poc. Tell them that £xx for travel costs is not sufficient, you want the number of miles travelled, what the cost of each mile they claim to be, was the vehicle shared and the cost shared, who drove, would the vehicle have still been used if your son hadnt gone on the course, was the vehicle full etc and do the same with the overnight stays

Also make sure if you haven't already, get a copy of the disciplinary notes which should have been taken during the discipline as they may indicate if they accepted that the declaration was made in good faith and not as they later decribed as deception in this letter http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp214/letterman_bucket/p4ureply_Pagered2.jpg

Also can you type up the conditions that allow them to withold commissions he earned as if they are wrong you can counter claim this also plus interest.

Sorry had to pull this.

I would go with "son has no contractual obligation to repay any monies incurred by the company for training." As there is no mention of recovering training costs in the contract or conditions even if dismissed.

If the cost of the coach is £200 then he would only be responsible for 1/35 of it as there were 34 other people using it. I don't beleive they can claim for the HR travel costs to attend a discplinary.(i will have a check on that) esp. as there would have been a manager in the store capable of doing it. If they choose to do it that way then they must bear the cost of the travel expenses .

Also normal declarations state something along the lines of " I understand that if I knowingly provide false or withhold material information in support of my application I may be dismissed from any post gained as a result.".

He didnt knowingly provide false info so they will have to prove (if he signed a similar declaration) that he knowingly did.

So just to clarify can we use a number of reasons to defend or do we just have to go with the one that he is not contractualy obligated to repay training costs?

Thanks again.

What your best off doing is using the "not contractually obliged" as a main defence and then state if the court finds that he is obliged then you are disputing the amounts claimed for reasons 1)xxx , 2)xxxx 3)xxx and you hold the claimant to strict proof on the amounts claimed.

OK I will post the defence letter for feed back once prepared. Logic would say that they will withdraw this claim, then again if logic prevailed they wouldnt be pursuing it in th first place!

Thanks for the help, its really appreciated.

Removed, will repost after the case is settled..ex-employer reading to much. Sorry

Sounds good , dont forget to send recorded:D

All the letters have now been sent (recorded). If the employer fails to provide the requested information within the 14 days what do we do then?