Hi all

My OH has just had the 'agreement' back for his old B of S card, now with Blair Oliver and Scott.

I'm pretty sure from the countless hours spent on here that it's not enforceable, but I'd really appreciate someone with proper knowledge having a looksee.

My thoughts on the single sided sheet of paper sent to him are...

1 - it's illegible. Even the headings make you strain to read them (OH says he thinks it looks like it could be from Microfiche). It's copied onto an A4 sheet, but the 'agreement' only takes up about 2/3 of the width, so even without the really really dodgy clarity it would be tricky to see.

2 - I can't see anything about a limit, we will decide a limit or anything resembling this type of statement. That said, I can't see most of the document so it possibly could be there, but none of the headings seem to relate to anything like that either.

3 - This is a biggy I think - No terms apart from whatever is in the signature box on the bottom right.

4 - It was sent with a note saying 'copy application as requested'

5 - It's headed 'Application form' and mentions 'application' within the form (the bits I can read anyway!)

If I'm right, could someone point me in the right direction for how to proceed? Should I just leave them to go past the 30 days (which is the 12th August by my reckoning), or do I write and ask for a legible copy of my agreement?

I don't want hubby to be seen as obstructive or anything, so I would lean towards the latter, but I know a hell of a lot of you are far more knowledgeable about these so I would rather bow to your advice than steam in and do the wrong thing:-D

Thanks in advance:)

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completely unenforceable.

Jogs

Totally agree though they may have complied with CCA s78 request (debatable) what has been supplied is unenforceable, the following is part of the response I received when I asked for a legal opinion on a very similar copy of a so called agreement for my CCA request with MBNA agreement.

The agreement does not appear to state the credit limit, the rate of interest, details of any power to vary the agreement or debtors repayment obligations. Although this is difficult to determine when referring to this agreement as it is impossible to read. These terms are prescribed terms within the CCA 1974 and must be contained within the agreement

I would advise that you write stating you believe the agreement is improperly executed, and as a consequence is irredeemably unenforceable (See Wilson v First County Trust CA).

All the best dpick:)

Hi

Thanks for your responses. I was kind of thinking it was caput for them, but I've not done this before so didn't want to do anything without checking first.

dpick, I don't suppose you could point me in the direction of a good letter at all? I've built up a bit of a template library of my own from my trawling around on here, but nothing that seems to fit this yet. I'm not bad with letter writing, but I don't think I can compete with the ones on here that state points of law so accurately!

I did want to ask you as well about one of your wins if you don't mind - am I right in thinking that with the JD Williams one that the cca was not enforceable (due to it not being there!) and you then managed to get the interest you'd paid back too? Or am I reading that all wrong...

Also, can anyone tell me if now is the time to tell my OH to stop payments to them, or does he wait until the 30 calendar days are up? I really don't want to put a foot wrong, so any help with this is much appreciated.

Cheers all:D

Hi again this is a copy of my first response to MBNA after they sent me an agreement that was almost unreadable and did noy contain any of the prescribed terms

MBNA Europe Bank Ltd

Stansfield House

Chester Business Park

Chester

Cheshire

CH4 9QQ

Account: XXXXXXXXXXX

Thank you for the information you sent following my request under the CCA 1974.

However, I made a request to you on 12th March 2007 for a true copy of the original executed agreement applicable to the alleged debt. Under the CCA s77/78, you are obliged to send me a true copy of the actual credit agreement in a clear and readable condition.

A regulated credit agreement contains all of the prescribed terms, other required information and statements of my statutory rights. Any separate terms and conditions (which should have been referred to in the original agreement) should also be provided to me and must be those applicable at the time that the agreement was signed.

It would appear that this agreement is unenforceable as it has have been improperly executed. The agreement does not contain all the prescribed terms set out in the Consumer Credit Act namely, The agreement does not state the credit limit, the rate of interest, details of any power to vary the agreement or debtors repayment obligations. Although this is difficult to determine when referring to your agreement as it is impossible to read. I believe that this agreement is improperly executed, and as a consequence is irredeemably unenforceable as an example see ( Wilson v First County Trust CA).

As I believe this agreement to be irredeemably unenforceable all payments will stop and all further correspondence must be in writing I will not under any circumstances make or receive any other type of correspondence.

Yours

dpick

You are correct my claim against J.D Williams was for all interest applied to the account and charges. I never signed any agreement so there was no agreement to allow them to make charges or to apply interest.

dpick:)

That's excellent, thanks very much:) I can't click your scales as it won't let me do it again, but I would if I could!

I didn't realise it was possible to try for interest/charges back - I can see I'm going back into the black hole of time that these forums have become to find out more:rolleyes:

Thanks again!!

Ok, quick update...

I fired off a letter after the application was sent (your letter was a big help thanks dpick) detailing the issues raised from it and sent it at the end of last month.

Today OH received a standard 'we're looking into your complaint' letter (what complaint, I just stated facts, no complaining there!), so I guess we'll hear more in the next few weeks.

The 30 days was up a couple of days ago, and the d/d for this month has been cancelled so I imagine we'll be hearing from them about that before the 'complaint' is looked into:rolleyes:

That's it for now - until the phone calls start at least:-)

I've just remembered something I forgot to mention yesterday, which may or may not be of use to me.

The reply received yesterday was from HBOS at their Lovell Park Road address, but I sent the 'you've only sent a application form' letter to Blair Oliver Scott at their Rosyth address. And, on noticing that, I then checked the application envelope I received and found that despite sending the original CCA request to BlairOS, and the compliment slip being from them, this also came from the Lovell Park Road address.

I know that it's generally acknowledged that they are one and the same, but I still find it odd that I write to one company and receive a reply from another, who supposedly don't want anything to do with hubbies account.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me at all please:confused:

Right, another quick question about this...

I'm not actually sure whether this account has been sold to, or is being managed by BlairOS. If I'm getting letters from one when I write to the other I would assume managed by, but I'd rather not just assume. Unfortunately OH used to chuck correspondence about debts (I know I know, I've told him too:rolleyes:) so I can't look back on anything.

Is my best bet here to SAR them, as there are charges which could be claimed too and I would be able to see if it's been assigned or sold? Alternatively I could just write to HBOS and ask them directly (cheaper, but may be ignored as Goldfish did for my account with them).

Also, if we're stating that the CCA is unenforceable, does this preclude going after charges as surely that's saying you have a debt? I know you did this and won dpick, but they actually didn't have anything in writing to say there was a debt, and we just have a dodgy CCA as opposed to a non existent one.

Only me again:D Oh, and apologies for the lack of paragraphs in this one - my return key isn't working (obviously, as that's an extremely common problem isn't it:rolleyes:) I meant to also add in #8, the letter they sent hubby yesterday was not sent to our address. It went to my mum and dads home instead. Now this used to be where statements/correspondence etc went to, but we moved a year ago, and since then everything from BlairOS and HBOS has been to the new address, except this letter. Should I bring this up with them, as they know damn well he's not there anymore, so why would they send anything there - what's in it for them and what are they playing at?

Hello all

I had a thread going in the RBS forum, then realised I should have been here instead. Hey ho:)

OH's account went to BlairOS a good while ago, and recently I sent off for a CCA from them. I recieved the below in response a little after the 12 working days.

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After advice from some very helpful posters on the other thread, I wrote and said thanks for the application form, but please now send me the agreement as what I have at the moment is bunkum. Or words to that effect:D

Yesterday OH had another identical application sent to him. Although, to be fair it was copied straighter this time:) Again there was a covering note stating 'copy application as requested'.

The 30 days was up on the 12th of this month, so where do we go now with this?

Also, I'm not sure if the account is managed by BlairOS or if they own it, but either way I'm writing to them and getting replies from HBOS, which I find a little odd. And, despite them corresponding with us at our new address for over a year, they sent their standard 'we're looking into it' response to my letter to my parents address, where we haven't been for years. Again, very strange.

My other thread is here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/153467-blair-oliver-scott-bank.html

if you want to have a look at the run up to this.

Thanks for any help:)

blair oliver and scott are halifaxs indoor DCA..so halifax still own the debt,, i CCaed them in march have heard nothing since..i cant really help with the application form sorry..if it doesnt have the prescribed T & C then i think it will be unenforcable..im sure some one with more knowledge will be along soon

Thanks babydoll - that explains why I send stuff to one company and receive the reply from another:rolleyes:

Can anyone help me with this please? I just need to know what to do after the 30 days. Their response to my letter informing them the first one was an application not an agreement was to send another copy of the application.

Where do I go now? Do I report them to TS and write to them again?

Any help much appreciated.

hi ..there is no 30 days no more that finished in may 2008 .. its 2+12 days then they in default..you can report then to TS if you wish..im still awaiting a CCA from halifax that i asked for in march ..have heard diddly squatt,absoulutly slience..if that were me after the 2+12 days id just sit back and chill which is what ive done you have asked them for a CCA they know the time scales.

Thanks babydoll

So did they just suck it up when you stopped payments then? I told OH to stop paying last month and we haven't heard anything since, but the silence is deafening! Especially when they have just re-sent the application that I already told them was pants on many points, so I'm thinking they are going to be trouble soon:eek:

hi lexis.. i stopped paying them as soon as the 30 days was up and i aint heard nuffin since ..no threats ,no application..etc..nothing!!..diddly squatt..im still waiting for somefing to turn up tho,, ..this is a debt of 16.500..mind you 2000.00 of it is charges ..started off in 2001 as 900.00 and they kepted uping it and uping it JUST coz i was paying the minium payment ..wot idiots..didnt even ask if i was still employed or nuffin..as ya OH stopped paying now ?? coz he shud do.. and trouble with who?? ..hope you mean BO & S will have troubs with you,, xx

Hey babydoll

Well I'll cross my fingers it goes the same for us:D I have told OH to stop paying so he's missed one payment with no word from them as yet...

I've just CCA'd BlairOS for another of hubbies cards, so I'm hoping we'll have the same outcome for that!

I kinda feel I should be sending another 'thanks, but this doesn't comply' letter just to show (if it ever gets to court) that I've tried my best to get the correct info, but I'm not really sure whether to or not:confused: I just really can't believe that when they receive a letter detailing the points that the 'agreement' falls down on, they just send a (slightly straighter) copy of the same thing! Not even with a covering letter, just a note saying 'copy application as requested'! Doh!

Okie dokie

We've started getting calls from HBOS now, so I guess they're a bit miffed. I'll be sending them a letter shortly telling them they're in dispute etc, but any pointers with anything else I should include would be gratefully recieved!

Does anyone know whether they're known for being relatively easy to deal with or are they likely to be right barstewards?

Thanks for any help!

Hi

We've had a few calls from BlairOS, 1 missed by OH (no message, just saw the number on moby and put it through saynoto0870 to find out who it was from), 1 picked up by me and hung up on at their end, and the one I've just come off from.

Basically, I said OH wasn't in, but before blokey could get off the phone I asked his name. He gave first name only, and flat refused to give a surname. Can they do this? I kind of thought they were obliged to give the whole name, but he wouldn't budge.

Also, he said he was from BO&S, but didn't say which bank it was in reference to. I don't know whether he should have or not, the account not being mine and all, but it seems a bit odd not to give that information.

Oh, and can anyone confirm the times they can call? 8am-9pm rings a bell but I'm not sure about that.

If anyone has any thoughts I'd appreciate seeing them:)

Thanks!

Hi Lexis,

If it's Blair Oliver it's going to be either Halifax or the Bank of Scotland. 8am to 9pm sounds about right, I think I've read that somewhere too.

The main piece of advice is this: Don't talk to them on the telephone - insist on everything being in writing and don't answer their security questions.

When you've got a few more details, post them up here.

Regards.

Fred

OFCOM say 5 times per day, 7 days a week, between 8:00am and 8:00pm....however DCA's use this because it suits them...the OFT say I think 5 times a week and TS recommend twice a week....

HOWEVER....harrassment affects different people in different ways....and harrassment is a criminal offence...

Hi

Thanks for your replies.

I don't normally answer 0870 calls, but I wanted to get a name for my call log diary as they've already been informed the account is in dispute and communication should be in writing only. I think this was suggested in my MBNA thread - don't go through security, but try to get a name. Oh, and obviously neither of us ever phone them!

I'm not too concerned yet as it's only 3 calls - my only problem will come if they use the home phone as, even though he is constantly told not to (just as a general safety thing, nothing to do with dca's/banks!), my five year old does pick up. I expect if they ramp it up I'll get rather more irritated though, we've just been getting it lightly for now though.

I didn't know that they just covered Halifax/BOS, so thanks for that Fred. The trouble is BOS are in default, and I've just CCA'd Halifax for hubbie so it could have been for either:)

I don't get how OFCOM/OFT/TS can have such vastly different ideas about harrassment:confused: No wonder the DCA's don't give tuppence about any guidelines if they can't even agree on something that fundamental!

What does anyone think/know about this first name only business? I'm in the midst of a letter regarding their attempt at a CCA, and as I'm likely to be putting in a formal complaint about that I'd quite like to include this if I can. And it's just come back to me that he gave me an 0870 number for OH to call - I'm sure that's a no-no isn't it?

Also, just to be cheeky (always worth a try:-D), if anyone fancies giving their opinion on the thread I have going on the CCA with BO&S/HBOS (it's not a big one), the link is here -http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/156429-lexis200-hbos-blair-oliver.html

Any input would be gratefully received as I'm pretty new to all this stuff!

Thanks again for any and all help

I've been on the inside of several DCAs (not as an employee, luckily!) and some were told to give out false names to protect themselves from people looking up their home numbers and threatening/shouting abuse at them. As long as you have the number they called (obviously), caller's number or company, date & time then that should be enough for a harassment log.

That's great, thanks:)