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shoplifting - genuine mistake, £80 fixed penalty


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Hi

 

I've just come across this forum and hope that someone can help. Yesterday I was shopping in Marks and Spencers. I bought a few items, went upstairs and was looking at bags. As I was looking around I genuinely forgot that I had a bag on my wrist along with lots of other shopping bags. I went to the food part of M&S and bought my food shopping and left the store. My car was parked on the street outside and as I putting the shopping in the boot of the car a security guard came up to me and asked if I had paid for the bag. I was mortified that I still had it on me and went back in the store where I apologised profusely to the manager. She took the bag and both her and the security guard agreed that it was an honest mistake. The security guard said he would take me number plate number, did this and I left.

 

However, when I left the store, I went over the road to buy some groceries and as I got in the car two policeman tapped on the window and asked me to get out. They searched my car and accused me of shoplifting some other items which were a present from someone else (in the car from the day before) and I didn't have a receipt. I also had some eggs (I have my own chickensand was on the way to a friends house to give her some eggs) which were in a Sainsbury's old egg box and they accused me of stealing a box of eggs from sainsburys. They were really intimidating and it was in the middle of the street in the pouring rain. A woman even came over to ask if I was alright as she could see I was being hassled by the police.

 

This went on for a long time and they issued me with a fixed penalty of £80, took all my details and my fingerprint and told me to look at the CCTV camera on the street so they could take a picture of me. I was so distressed that I didn't really realise what was happening. I'm now really concerned about what the fixed notice is. The police said although it isn't a criminal conviction it will be on their file. What does this mean? I am so upset that I didn't sleep at all last night.

 

Having read various threads on the forum I have a couple of questions:

 

- will Marks and Spencers now issue me with another fine (some posts mention retail loss prevention of £137)? Or does the police fine mean that I have been 'reprimanded'?

 

- will Marks and Spencers log me in some way or ban me from the shop? I only live in a small town and whilst I am mortally embarrassed and feel I can't go back into M&S, I will have to at some point - if I go in will they have me on their 'suspect list' (or something)?

 

I do understand that I had officially stolen something, even if it was a genuine mistake but I am so upset and am worried about going back into my town again.

 

Any help much appreciated.

Thanks

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If the penalty was purely on suspicion of what you had in the boot and not as a result of M&S complaint, then that is a summary judgement and an un warranted penalty.

 

Just my opinion.

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I've never heard of these kinds of power. Presumably they much have given you a receipt or some statement of your rights in the matter. Could you scan a copy for us.

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The police have no power to do this, and certainly no power to issue any kind of penalty for an unproven offence.

 

Are you in a position now where you can refuse the penalty, or have you already paid it?

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

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The police have no power to do this, and certainly no power to issue any kind of penalty for an unproven offence.

 

Are you in a position now where you can refuse the penalty, or have you already paid it?

 

Yes they do. Shoplifting carries a 'fixed penalty' charge of £80 where the value of the goods taken is less than £100. Not, of course, for an unproven offence.

There is also new legislation that allows the police to arrest and give immediate 'bail' as well.

 

Another government money making scheme.

 

Serial shoplifters may escape jail - Telegraph - from 2006

 

BBC NEWS | UK | Penalty fines 'boost shoplifting'

 

House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Nov 2004 (pt 3) - Hansard 2004

Edited by Conniff
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Surely the date on the egg box would of been a clue. Why would you steal eggs that are passed their expiry date? :confused:

Did the Police ask you about the bag? Maybe that is what the fine was for or was it for the eggs and presents?

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The issue now is to find out how this matter can be appealed. We need the scan of the document which must have been issued

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Thanks for your help. The fixed penalty was for the bag which I agreed that I had indeed stolen it (albeit by mistake). The whole incident was chaotic and intimidating that I don't really know about the eggs and the present, I think they were trying to make an example of me and were pretty intimidating. I told them to look at the eggs as they were covered in chikcen poo to which the policeman said "well, that's what organic eggs look like". He also said that I had stolen the grocieries which I had just bought. Howver, I think these were just accusations and I wasn't charged with those.

 

I was so upset that I agreed to the fixed penalty notice for the bag. Otherwise, they said I would be arrested and have to go to court. I have paid the fixed penalty. To be honest, I don't really care about it. I''m so embarrassed by the whole thing that I want it to go away. I'm more concerned that I will be on some suspect list if I go back to M&S and that they will have a photo of me. Also, does the fixed penalty mean this is dealt with and that M&S won't try to regain anything else.

 

I'm really upset by the whole thing and don't feel that I can tell any amily or friends. That might just be how I'm feeling at the moment.

 

One other thing is that on the fixed penalty notice I have signed it in two places. He just told me to sign it and I was in such a state that I didn't read it. It says "I confirm that I have agreed to provide a fingerprint for the purpose of identification at some future date. I have told that I do not have to provide a fingerprint and I have done so of my own free will and I understand the reason for making such a request" The policeman did not make this clear to me, he just asked me for my fingerprint. I really don't like the idea of the police having my finderprint. Giventhat I have signed this, can I contest this and have my fingerprint removed from the system?

 

Thank you in advance for your help.

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Yes they do. Shoplifting carries a 'fixed penalty' charge of £80 where the value of the goods taken is less than £100. Not, of course, for an unproven offence.

There is also new legislation that allows the police to arrest and give immediate 'bail' as well.

 

Another government money making scheme.

 

They dont have the power to enforce it - this is a completely unproven offence.

 

Having been part of retail security, they have to have evidence of the item having actually been removed from the store and not paid for. There is no such evidence in this case. Disgraceful behaviour by the police I must say.

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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So I gather that the staff at M&S agreed that it was an honest mistake and yet you were later stopped by police and given a fixed penalty.

 

I expect that M&S will have made a full report of the incident and if you want to follow this up then you should send them an SAR asking for all info which they hold on you.

 

Also I think that you should write to the police, refer to the penalty and say that you are proposing to challenge it and you would like details of how this can be done.

 

If you really want to let it go then do nothing. However there won't be any way that you can do anything about your fingerprints on file.

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They dont have the power to enforce it - this is a completely unproven offence.

 

 

Not in this case. They have M&S testimony and the op admittance as well.

 

Enforcement is the same as all penalty notices, no pay, summons.

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Wrong in more than one way Conniff(although I agree with the summons part).

 

First of all, my understanding is that this was issued for the contents of her car NOT the M&S episode.

 

Even if it was, then theft is the "dishonest appropriation of goods, with the intention of permanently depriving the owner of them". The OP did neither thing - although admittedly, difficult to prove, but then it is up to the CPS to prove she did, not her to prove she didnt.

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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Don't want to cross swords with you Mr S and I see what you are saying, but the op had the bag as she was puting the rest of her shopping into her car, and it was retreved by M&S security, so she had for all intents and purposes made a dishonest appropriation.

 

The other things in her car were just used as intimidation as far as I can make out.

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I may have misinterpreted then - but thats certainly my reading.

 

Hey Conniff nothing wrong with a bit of debate/disagreement!

 

I disagree btw :) the act itself is not in anyway whatsoever a dishonest appropriation. The issue is that it APPEARS to be. However, proving this in court, especially considering the manner of the OPs reaction to the situation, is an entirely different situation, and far from cut and dry.

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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I suppose it's a case of do I pay or go to court?

If I go to court will I be found guilty?

If I am found guilty will it cost me more that £80?

 

Is it worth taking a chance and going to court, probably not, unless of course you have done no wrong and can prove it.

 

Like I said in an earlier post - another government fund raising scheme, we come first, victim comes second or not at all.

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Just one question, did Callum 8 return the bag or did she subsequently pay for it and keep it?

If the M&S security let her go and accepted it was a genuine error, why were the police involved at all?

Does sound all a bit suspicious to me!

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Hi - I gave the bag bag immediately to the security guard and the manager was there and they both agreed it was a mistake. With regards to the police I guess I was unlucky as my car was parked outside and the police station is opposite M&S so I reckon they were just police in the area. When I went to the greengrocers and returned to my car, that is when the police were there. I really did feel they were making an example of me and I wish it hadn't been so public in the street in front of a crowd of people!

 

I feel a lot better about the whole thing having engaged with this forum. I know I was 'officially' in the wrong and that even though it wsa a mistake, I have paid the price. I don't agree with the way I was treated but having read other threads on this forum I realise I'm not alone.

 

Thanks everyone. I'm going to try and forget about the whole. I don't plan to ever shoplift so I shouldn't ever find myself in a similar situation. I just can't face ever going back into my local M&S!

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  • 8 months later...

Can I just say.

 

When you are issue a FPN by the Police that does not mean you have accepted the offence.

 

It means you have the option of paying the fine and facing no further action or

the Police create a file and submit it to the mags court where you will receive a summons.

 

The FPN will clearly explain how to do this. You still reserve your right to have your day in court.

 

There are numerous things the Police can issue FPNs for these days. However, as these are done under 'criminal law' I believe the term 'penalty' is lawful.

 

Take some legal advice from a solicitor. You may find that the 'pointy head' does not want to go to the trouble of creating a file for court. They much prefer it when you pay the FPN as they don't have to get statements etc.

Edited by funkyparott
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I would further add that generally it is the officer who decides to issue the FPN.

 

Just because an officer thought an FPN should be issued, does not mean the case meets the evidential test that CPS apply!

 

I'd still get advice from a solicitor though.

 

 

Can I just say.

 

When you are issue a FPN by the Police that does not mean you have accepted the offence.

 

It means you have the option of paying the fine and facing no further action or

the Police create a file and submit it to the mags court where you will receive a summons.

 

The FPN will clearly explain how to do this. You still reserve your right to have your day in court.

 

There are numerous things the Police can issue FPNs for these days. However, as these are done under 'criminal law' I believe the term 'penalty' is lawful.

 

Take some legal advice from a solicitor. You may find that the 'pointy head' does not want to go to the trouble of creating a file for court. They much prefer it when you pay the FPN as they don't have to get statements etc.

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My guess is that it was reported through the shopwatch traders scheme-most Towns and cities have these in operation now-and they are linked up to Police and other stores.When the M&S security guards took your number plate details-that would have given the Police your ID.

There are conditions with these shopwatch schemes whereby traders are required to relay info across the radio-theres not much movement for discretion.

I agree with Bankfodder-I think A subject access to M&S would get the real story-although its worth pointing out that they may cite prohibitation under section 56 of the DPA this prohibits providing certain information where it relates to the prevention or detection of crime or the apprehension or prosecution of the offenders,and when the disclosure of information would be likely to predjudice any of these purposes.They do not have to state when these exemptions have been applied

 

Its just something thats also open to interpretation I suppose.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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Am I missing something here if the manager & the security guard agreed it was a mistake why were the police involved & was it explained to them???

 

Also were the manager and security guard spoken to by the police?

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That was my point Jon-these stores sign up to these shopwatch alerts and have to agree codes-its possible that there was already radio contact with the Police and other stores even before she left the store-this is how it works these days-I am only guessing but suspect the decision to issue the penalty was from the Police.

Technically M&S could refuse the DPA request on the basis that they were deciding whether to prosecute...this would obviously rely on cooperation from the Police-but we know that in turn that Police have to rely on the co operation of the stores-Its a very cosy relationship.....unless of course you are in the middle of the 2

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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I understand that Martin but if the manager and the security guard agreed it was a mistake, proven I might add because they allowed her to go on her way, why didn't the police 1st determine the facts before finding her guilty

 

Were they told by the OP

 

Did they ask the manager & the guard

 

Did the manager & guard change their story

Edited by JonCris
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A SAR would only produce data directly concerned with the OP-it wouldnt cover those things discussed between third parties would it ?

Its getting the details of how the decision to issue the penalty notice came about,and who made the decision and on what reasoning thats going to be hard to get.

I dont suppose for a minute they will be quick to answer these questions.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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I understand that Martin but if the manager and the security guard agreed it was a mistake, proven I might add because they allowed her to go on her way, why didn't the police 1st determine the facts before finding her guilty

 

Were they told by the OP

 

Did they ask the manager & the guard

 

Did the manager & guard change their story[/quote

 

Could the OP please answer the above questions?????

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