Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


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  1. #1

    Default Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Situation:

    I live close to the junction of my street and a busy B road. (I am the 2nd house from the end in a row of victorian terraced houses).

    Behind the houses on the other side is a car park that is always full with residents from the other side of the road, and surrounding streets cars.

    Outside my house are double yellow lines whcih extend from the junction to halfway past the 3rd terraced house. The yellow lines on the opposite side run approx 2.5 meters longer.

    The lines used to be shorter but when they were doing some work on the B road they lengthened them to stop people parking near the junction, however these lines were never reduced.

    Now, in the past 3-4 years a lot of new people have moved onto the street, and unlike the people who left, almost all have cars.

    There is now simply no more room to park.

    I have on numerous occasions had to park 2-3 streets away from my house, which I'd rather not do with the local scally's hanging around.

    At the other end of the street, the junction with another very busy B road that has waggons running up and down it all day from the local distribution centres has one of those silly mini roundabouts, but, there are no yellow lines to be seen. they extend just 1 foot beyond the junction onto our street.

    I want to write to the council to see if it would be possible to reduce the length of the lines in front of my house. Possibly with the ideal length being from the junction to the end of the first house- so about 2.5 meters from the junction.

    Is there anything i should state to the council as to why the lines should be reduced. Is there any sort of evidence from previous cases I could use. Could I use the example of the opposite end of the street as evidence?

    Any help appreciated.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    The Council are unlikely to be receptive to a single request to change the lines since its not just a case of painting out the bit you don't like. Any change to the Traffic Regulation Order would require a review of areas restrictions, parking and traffic flow followed by consulting the public over any changes. The best bet would be to get a few other names from your street to add weight to your request and then contact a friendly Councillor.


  3. #3

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    fiest check what the TRO says - the yellow lines may just be 'graffiti'..


  4. #4

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    You need to request a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order that refers to the yellow lines, so when writing to your council you need to be very specific on your request. There is usually a TRO which lists the length of the yellow lines, whether they are single or double and the enforceable periods.

    Then you need to measure them accurately. If the lines are either longer or shorter that what is stipulated in the TRO technically you win because they should be EXACTLY as described in the TRO.

    Good luck and if you have had a parking ticket, appeal anyway, there may be another reason for it being invalid.

    The yellow lines must be accompanied by a post stipulating the enforceable periods. You could also measure the post and photograph and send in details as unless you have both the post and the lines, they are NOT ENFORCEABLE (unless regulations have recently changed)


  5. #5

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by please return my money View Post
    Good luck and if you have had a parking ticket, appeal anyway, there may be another reason for it being invalid.

    The yellow lines must be accompanied by a post stipulating the enforceable periods. You could also measure the post and photograph and send in details as unless you have both the post and the lines, they are NOT ENFORCEABLE (unless regulations have recently changed)
    I think the whole point of the OPs post was that he didn't want to get a ticket!
    Whatever the TRO says its preferable to get the problem solved rather than have to worry about getting PCNs and then appealing.

    ps. DYL do NOT need any signage other than the lines themselves.


  6. #6

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    DYLS DO need a valid TRO that covers their location, If the lines extend beyond the area defined in the TRO they are graffiti.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by lamma View Post
    DYLS DO need a valid TRO that covers their location, If the lines extend beyond the area defined in the TRO they are graffiti.
    That doesn't really help the OP tho does it?


  8. #8

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    we will find out when he checks the TRO - many councils are remiss despite the clear the legislation. always worth checking the TRO.


  9. #9

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by lamma View Post
    we will find out when he checks the TRO - many councils are remiss despite the clear the legislation. always worth checking the TRO.
    My point is....I have yet to meet a PA who carries around a copy of each TRO so there is a good chance even if they are too long he will get a PCN, something he is trying to avoid.


  10. #10

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by please return my money View Post
    The yellow lines must be accompanied by a post stipulating the enforceable periods. You could also measure the post and photograph and send in details as unless you have both the post and the lines, they are NOT ENFORCEABLE (unless regulations have recently changed)
    Incorrect.

    DYL (as G&M has stated above) never need any signs on posts; SYL within a controlled parking zone do not need any signs either.


  11. #11

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by green_and_mean View Post
    My point is....I have yet to meet a PA who carries around a copy of each TRO so there is a good chance even if they are too long he will get a PCN, something he is trying to avoid.
    G&M - the OP is trying to avoid valid enforceable PCNs - not confetti dished out from the council.


  12. #12

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by please return my money View Post
    You need to request a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order that refers to the yellow lines, so when writing to your council you need to be very specific on your request. There is usually a TRO which lists the length of the yellow lines, whether they are single or double and the enforceable periods.

    Then you need to measure them accurately. If the lines are either longer or shorter that what is stipulated in the TRO technically you win because they should be EXACTLY as described in the TRO.

    <snip>
    True, but watch out for the favourite trick of "lines from the junction with xyz for a distance of abc metres or thereby" Usually used because the guys who paint lines aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

    Obviously if they're five metres longer then the TRO than you would probably have grounds for an appeal, but if they're 500mm over, probably not.


  13. #13

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm sure it's an offence to park within 10 metres of a road junction ?


  14. #14

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by nigel_bytes View Post
    Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm sure it's an offence to park within 10 metres of a road junction ?
    OK, you're wrong

    I know plenty of places where parking bays are marked out within 10M of a junction.


  15. #15

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Thats the exception Pat. "“DO NOT park your vehicle or trailer on the road where it would endanger, inconvenience or obstruct pedestrians or other road users, For example do not stop…Opposite or within 10 metres (32 feet) of a junction, except in an authorised parking space...”"


  16. #16

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by lamma View Post
    Thats the exception Pat. "“DO NOT park your vehicle or trailer on the road where it would endanger, inconvenience or obstruct pedestrians or other road users, For example do not stop…Opposite or within 10 metres (32 feet) of a junction, except in an authorised parking space...”"
    This is presumably from the Highway Code.

    DO NOT is advisory; legal prohibition is signified in the HC by MUST NOT.

    The original post thought that it was an offence (ie legally prohibited)


  17. #17

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    point well made. I suppose it will come down to individual circumstance - it may be an obstruction or it may not..


  18. #18

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by lamma View Post
    G&M - the OP is trying to avoid valid enforceable PCNs - not confetti dished out from the council.
    Sorry I didn't realise you knew the OP and had an insight into his needs maybe next time you could post for him and make it clearer.


  19. #19

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by green_and_mean View Post
    Sorry I didn't realise you knew the OP and had an insight into his needs maybe next time you could post for him and make it clearer.
    what ? The point is valid for all council PCNs hence the highlighting of valid enforceable.
    It is the usual issues that are required for the PCN to have both those attributes.

    1) the PCN - may be non complaint and so unenforceable. many are

    2)The signs, bays or lines - many are not as in the TSRGD and so unenforceable.

    3) The Traffic Regulation Order. these are often wrong/lost/never existed. this invalidating the restrictions.

    4)The parking - may not have been as alledged, this is also often found to be the case, result is the ticket is duff.

    Am pretty sure you know these things from the contents of your other. posts.

    despite not understanding the point of your comment I do agree that making it clearer is always a good idea. for everyone.


  20. #20

    Default Re: Can I challenge over double yellows?

    Quote Originally Posted by lamma View Post
    what ? The point is valid for all council PCNs hence the highlighting of valid enforceable.
    It is the usual issues that are required for the PCN to have both those attributes.

    1) the PCN - may be non complaint and so unenforceable. many are

    2)The signs, bays or lines - many are not as in the TSRGD and so unenforceable.

    3) The Traffic Regulation Order. these are often wrong/lost/never existed. this invalidating the restrictions.

    4)The parking - may not have been as alledged, this is also often found to be the case, result is the ticket is duff.

    Am pretty sure you know these things from the contents of your other. posts.

    despite not understanding the point of your comment I do agree that making it clearer is always a good idea. for everyone.
    I am fully aware of the law as you know, the point I am making is that the OP didn't even mention PCNs. He was asking how to get the lines removed so he could park legally and probably without upsetting his neighbours. Whether the TRO is correct or not is very unlikely to prevent him from getting a PCN, the fact that he would have to pay it or not is another matter. Believe it or not some people DO have better things to do than spend their free time appealing against PCNs. It can take at least 4 weeks to get to appeal stage and no sane person would welcome the prospect of dozens of PCNs and possibly hundreds of £s in fines hanging over their head regardless of how confident they may win their case.


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