Hi,

I had a CC debt with RBS who passed it to face2face who I sent a CCA request to (now out of time), then out of the blue Westcot say the account has been passed to them and have now sent me a final notice. Not sure if they are face2face in disguise:roll: Anyone know ?

Should I ask Westcot for the CCA and deed of assignment now they appear to have it ?

I feel a bit miffed at having to start again with these requests for the same debt.

Any advice please......

I believe that face 2 face are something to dowith intrum justicia

I had dealings with them a while back and im pretty sure they were related to IJ in some way

HTH

and i would imagine that if you have allready CCA's Face 2 face then they shouldnt of passed it on to a different collectins agency as effectively the account would be in dispute

therfore id imagine you would just have to send a letter to wescot stating that the account is in dispute and you wont deal with them

Id wat for better advice but i "think" thats correct

send them the following letter (courtesy of CB)

Edit accordingly

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Dear Sir or Madam,

Account number: XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

Dear XXXXX

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to yourselves, as it is in dispute with DCA/Creditor and has been since DATE 2007.

Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998

As DCA/Creditor have failed to comply with my Consumer Credit Act request and admitted that the alleged signed executed agreement is unavailable, enforcement action is impossible under section 127 (3) of the Act.

As DCA/Creditor are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request and OFT Collection Guidelines,I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default enforcement action is NOT permitted, under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the SDFS for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as Fredricksons cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

If DCA/Creditor chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

After taking advice, I am of the opinion that any continued pursuit is in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well as breaching a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully

Hi,

I had a credit card with Tesco sometime ago.

I was paying Tesco direct until they passed it on to Face 2 Face. I asked them for a copy of the CCA and they are now out of time and I have not heard anything from them.

I have also had a letter from AIC claiming they were assigned the debt 1st November 2007 with a follow up from them on 14th January for what appears to be the same debt and now Westcot have sent me a final notice for the same debt !!!! They claim it was passed to them in December 2007. It seems there has been a lot of passing around on this.

I was thinking of sending this letter to Westcot (someone kindly posted it to me on a previous thread). Do you think this is the right way to go ??? I am confused :-?

Dear Sir or Madam,

Thank you for your letter of 12/12/2007 and 28/12/2007 the contents of which have been noted.

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to yourselves, as it is in dispute with Face 2 Face and has been since 20th NOVEMBER 2007.

Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998

As Face 2 Face have failed to comply with my Consumer Credit Act request and admitted that the alleged signed executed agreement is unavailable, enforcement action is impossible under section 127 (3) of the Act.

As Face 2 Face are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request and OFT Collection Guidelines,I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default enforcement action is NOT permitted, under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the SDFS for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as Face 2 Face cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

If Face 2 Face chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

After taking advice, I am of the opinion that any continued pursuit is in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well as breaching a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines

I would also point out that AIC also appear to own this debt ??

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully..............

Any help appreciated.

(I have never has any deed of assisgnments either)

Thanks

They do not have to send you copies of Deeds of Assignments. The drill is that they send you a 'hello' letter to inform you that they have taken over the debt. However... in the light of what you have said Face 2 Face had no lawful right to sell on these debts as they are commiting an offence under CCA S.78(6) and I would be inclined to send a copy to both DCA's with a cc to Face 2 Face as well

Hope this helps

You coud try the below alter to the DC names to suite

HAK

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to Marlin Financial services, as it is in dispute with the Metropolitan Collection Services and has been since 31st July 2007.

Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also a breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Data Protection Act 1998

As Metropolitan Collection Services are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request, I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default enforcement action is NOT permitted, under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law.

As Marlin Financial services cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities on this account, I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the Metropolitan Collection Services for resolution of these defaults and breaches.

If Marlin Financial services chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

You will also be aware that as holders of a Consumer Credit Licence you are obliged to comply with the Office of Fair Trading Guidelines on Debt Collection. I would therefore be obliged if you would provide me with an explanation as to why you are attempting to collect on an alleged debt which was disputed with Metropolitan Collection Services. Since this is considered an unfair practice and contrary to the OFT guidelines, you should consider this letter as a formal complaint, and provide me with a copy of your complaint procedure.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

Hi,

Can anyone help with this please.

I followed all the advice from this site and eventually got a copy of an application for from RBS plus SEPERATE and CURRENT terms of the card product. Having pointed this out to them they have replied with the following..

'Any request for a copy of and executed agreement under s78(1), states that the company must meet its statutary requirements by providing a 'true copy' of the agreement relevant to the card product at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card product.

The provision of the 'true copy' in this form is made in reliance of Regulations3(2) and 7(1)(b) of the consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Particularly 3(2) which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document.

As we have supplied a copy of the credit agreement that you signed, copy of the Terms and Conditions of that card product, a most recent statement ......We have therefore met our obligations under s78(1) to provide a copy of that executed agreement and again we are satisfied that what we have provided complied with the Regulations expressly made for contolling what is a 'true copy'.

They then go on to say they won't enter into any further correspondence and they will pursue me etc.

Not sure if they are right and what to do next, I thought the terms and conditions had to be somewhere on the signed document.

Please help.

Usually an application form isn't enforceable. Any chance you can scan it and pop it on here so we can have a look?

What you have been sent is a standard b*gger orf letter common to finance companies. As per above post, scan it and post it up, (delete your personal details) and we can give an opinion.

Makes you laugh they quote Cancellation and Copies of Documents 1983. It is quite common you get sent a very poor copy that you can't read. The above Act specifically prohibits that, but you still get the same letter!

David

I have scanned it on this link.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn288/arif_61/rbs.jpg

Thanks

Looks like an application form to me. Does it contain the interest rate and repayment terms anywhere on it?

You've blocked a lot of the forms text while removing your personal info, so I can't tell if the proper pescribed terms that make it an enforceable agreement are there or not.

Thats an application and is not enforceable.

Sometimes an application from can be a valid agreement if it contains all the pescribed terms that are required in an enforceable agreement.

The Pescribed Terms are these

A Amount of credit

A term stating the amount of credit

B Repayments

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-

(a) Number of repayments;

(b) Amount of repayments;

© Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) Dates of repayments;

(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

C Rate of interest

A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement

D Credit limit

This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.

--------------------------

Which of these applies to you depends on the type of agreement you have?

For a Running Account (credit card) agreement

BC and D Apply

For a Restricted Use Debtor Creditor Supplier

• Where the dealer is the supplier and the creditor is the one providing the finance.
  
• The money can only be used for the purpose it is given.
  
• There is no interest on the purchase (the cash price is the same as the total price)
  
• And there is no advance payment
  

A is applicable

For a fixed Sum Credit Agreement

A conventional credit agreement with none of the above restrictions

A and B apply

For a Hire Agreement

B is Applicable

This paper only covers section 127(3) of the Act agreements can also be unenforceable by contravention of sections 1 and4 this will be the subject of the next paper.

Please note that these Prescribed terms where not changed in any way by the 2004/1482 Ammendments although the form in which they appear on the agreement was. Subsection127(3) was repealed on the 6th of April 2007 so that unenforceability due to 127(3) will only apply to agreemens executed before that date.

I can't see the whole form, as per FB's post above. However, as far as terms and conditions are concerned, the RBS letter attempts to mislead. s.78 of the Consumer Credit Act says that the creditor must supply:

a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it

If the credit agreement refers to terms and conditions, it plainly means those extant at the time - unless, of course, the agreement specifically states that it refers to terms and conditions as at July 2008, or whenever they sent the copy out.

If challenged, they will come back with some drivel about supplying current terms 'as these are the version our customers find most useful', or similar. In general, the more they try to justify what they've done, the less likely that what they've sent is legit.

Thanks for all yor replies. I have got the magnifying glass out and can only see Data Protection Act and Declaration at the bottom. The rest is just financial details.

All the prescribed terms listed above are on a seperate sheet...not on the application form at all.

Do I need to write to them again and if so what do I need to say please. ( I have already sent the 'template' letter that is is not a true CCA and they are still insisting they are in the right)

many thanks

Are the terms on a sheet with your's and their signature on it?

Are the two pages linked in some way? Either by stating page numbers,or looking like they were scanned from the same document? Or does the one with the terms on it look freshly printed and not a photocopy?

I ask this as I had a halifax card CCA sent that was made up from 3 different documents. I questioned them on the validity of this, as the late payment charges listed were different. Also one was a printout of current terms and conditions with my name added, but not the one from the date of the page with my signature on it. + they hadn't signed their part at all. Also one page stated I wanted payment protection inurance, and the others were blank for that section.

As soon as I told them why I wasn't happy, they went very quiet and I haven't heard from them for 3 months now. OFT complaint in progress for 6 breaches of OFT guidelines and the law. + one breach of the data protection act when one of their call centre monkeys discussed my personal details with another member of my household.

No there are no signatures or page numbers or any sort of link. It just looks like a standard thing they send out and put your name and address on the top. It is definiately not from the same document. Its freshly printed.

Further to SP's post (no 8)

Quote:

a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it

The agreement refers to the General Terms and Conditions and the reverse of the document.

You want from them a copy of T & C's from 2000 & a copy of the reverse. While you are at it make your letter an official complaint and ask for a copy of their complaints procedure.

They have said they won't discuss it any further.

Make a complaint to the FOS and Trading Standards

David

Also it's likely the reverse of the page wasn't saved. Looks like a microfiche to me, so chances are they won't have the original either.

Pull them up on it, sitck by your guns and if they really think they have a chance they would try and go the court route.

Pointing out their failings, and why you're not happy will make them realise you are aware they don't have a properly executed agreement. Challenge them, and before too long they'll realise they're fighting a lost cause.

DCA's always try and say what they've sent it legal and follow it up with letters threatening court action. It's designed to scare you into paying up, as most think the following- "court is scary, means lots of legal expenses and solicitors, you having to prove you don't owe anything."

Really it's up to the DCA to have all the proper legally binding paperwork properly executed, and up to them to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that you owe them anything.

Really it's up to the DCA to have all the proper legally binding paperwork properly executed, and up to them to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that you owe them anything.

Civil Rules FB - Balance of Probability.

David

PS Don't send the Gingerbread Men to get me.

Hi Brown Owl

any update or follow up? i have been sent exactly the same types of docs following my request. Their fresh print outs of t&C's are so blatantly not part of the original docs!

i have read on another thread, from a debt collector actually where he states that all the banks etc have to prove is that you acknowledged the debt by making previous payments then fell in default - very confusing. who is right?

I got the same kind of thing from Bank of Scotland (not Royal Bank of Scotland) and they are trying to persuade me that an application form is all they are obliged to send when asked for a CCA. I am not having that! I know they haven't got a signed, executed CCA. Stand firm, there is nothing they can do in court with what they have sent you.