Hello all,

My company (i can no name in public but will in PM/mail) has mandated that after promotion I must join one of the company social clubs.

I neither wish to use the facilities nor do. Since my promotion however I have been interviewed as I have not payed the membership bill and been warned it will be docked from my wage if I do not pay. My alternative is they have threatened they can demote me.

There is nothing directly in the contract to say I must join the club however there are elements stating on reaching my present level you must pay the mebership. I can if I choose use the club at any time but so far have not used any of the facilities offered.

As I see it at the moment there are several issues to address;

1) The company has offered credit (by way of running a credit line of the membership fee) and thus to enforce this they must comply with the CCA to get the fees owed.

2) I did not choose to become a member it is by virtue of current position and enforced upon me.

3) I do not use nor intend to use the services.

Any-one see any legal points I can look into further, or immediate irregularities with what my company is doing. Unfortunately I can not enter in to much more detail (company/policy) publicly but am prepared to give more details by PM / mail and post the generics in the forum for all to see. (If anyone takes this up they will see why.)

Looking for advice

G

Would need more details,outline on whats in your T & C`s, company work book etc.

On the face of it, i cvan not see how they can enforce this, however as always things might not be as simple as they seem.

your t's & c's will confirm this outright.

is anyone else at your level having the same problem ?

have you consulted a union official ?

as cal37 says, it doesnt seem like they could enforce it, but theres always small print, so take a look.

do you know anyone in the wages dept' who actually deducts these payments from other employers, and if so, see if you can find anything out.

When you say your company has mandated this - by what means? is this in writing to you, or has it been communicated verbally?

If you wish to PM more details I will have a look.

Kind regards

Ell-enn

OK - Thanks for interest.

I am a member of Armed forces - and was my rank entitles me to use what is called a 'Mess' essentially a social club open exclusively to my rank.

As a member of the forces we come under civil law and military rules called Queens regualtions (QR's). QR's state that every mess member must pay their bill by the 10th of the month; By virtue of rank I am a member.

I do not use the 'Mess' and have no intention of using it, I live a good distance away to be able to casually use it (bar,draws etc), and I do not attend formal functions. Formal functions are billed in addition to the monthly standing charge as are accomodation fee's which may be incurred. The standing charge covers such items as daily newspapers, mess improvements (gardens etc) which do not come out of the Public Purse. All of the basic provisions (food,accomodation if required, staff) have to be provided from the public purse.

I have been warned about not paying and stated my case and ben told the only option is to retrun to a lower rank which does not entitle me to the facilites of the 'Mess', or fees will be directly dedeucted from my wage and/or military disiplinary action. The grounds for disciplinary action would be failiure to pay the bill in accordance with QR's (guilty by default not paid by 10th of each month).

My point is - Is the charge legal in the first place and what could I refer to to justify illegality (by civil law). Bills are produced monthly and equate to about 35% of the difference between my previous rank and current rank.

As I see it an initial arguement would be the bill is run as a credit account, and billed retrospectively. Monthly standing charge retrospective and any thing if I chose to use the bar that I billed to my account is run as a credit line, as are function fees etc. Therefor it should come under the realms of the CCA (nothing signed to accept bill or charges by me).

Over to the floor - as you can se because this is a military issue I have to be a bit cagey about what I say publicly.

ht7

I think you will find it impossible to either opt out of Mess membership or avoid paying bills.

Presumably you are a newly promoted Sgt; when you were a Cpl, and for some time before that, you must have been aware of the existence of the Mess. You must have known that when you became a SNCO you would become a member of the Mess - indeed, many see Mess membership as something to aspire to. The fact is that Mess membership is part and parcel of military life at the rank you are now in.

That said, I have some sympathy with you, being a Mess member who lives out and still has to pay for facilities not used and services not provided. Many of the rules surrounding Mess billing are archaic and heavily weighted in favour of the system.

Whilst I don't think you are going to get QRs changed overnight, I do think there are some things you can do to minimise your costs. Check to ensure that the Mess is entitled to make all the charges - especially if it's contractorised, as they are notorious for 'errors'. There's a JSP (can't remember which one) that contains all the rules for what can and can't be done in Messes. Charging for functions you didn't attend is a no-no, for example. Ask for a breakdown of any standing charges - e.g. charging everyone for the garden is acceptable, whilst charging everyone for the washing machines is not (only livers-in should pay).

It seems crazy to me to jeopardize your career because you don't want to be in the Mess, and it's as much a part of being a SNCO as the other rights and responsibilities that come with promotion.

If you really want lots of views on this, head over to the Army Rumour Service website (ARRSE) - this question has come up several times before there.

As far as the CCA is concerned, I agree that membership of Messes and paying bills should probably be formalised. With more and more Messes being contractorised, the standards have plummetted, and more and more billing errors seem to be occurring - yet individuals start off at a disadvantage because they have to pay in any circumstances. As the method of providing the service has changed, the system has remained the same.

SP,

Saw you answering some other threads and thought this might get to you. Thank- you for your reply.

Ultimately I will pay as I really don't think I can get out of it. I would just like to make the service squirm a little bit. By mentioning the leagalities (or illegalities) of the mandatory charge.

I do feel that the particular mess is operating outwith the remit of the rules, in some instances of which I am quite accustomed. I have mentioned this to the adjutant staff who are non-commital and say this is a mess committe problem.

At an interview (regarding the overdue bill) i did mention I would be prepared to pay a reduced rate (e.g. non-attending members rate) but this was pooh-poohed (as I expected).

Obviously I was aware of the mess and mess fees prior to promotion, however until I chose to stop paying and was subsequently interviewed I was unaware that it was mandatory to pay. One of my big issues is that since the major review of pay a few years ago (Pay 2000) mess fees now account for approx 35%-40% of your promotion wage increase . The promotion pay increase is only approx 3-5% on top of the unpromoted wage.

I fail to see the mandatory mess fee being legal and think it has only continued so long becuase no one has challenged it, military tradition blah blah. I am willing to challenge this as there is an large underswell of support, who I do not expect to come fully forward.

I am aware of A.R.S.E etc. but in general everyone just says to tow the party line and pay or get out. I worked hard for promotion and while a 'private bar' which in my opinion is all the mess is, is good, I would prefer the option to save that bit of money for me and mrs ht7 to go out, or stay in with.

Thanks and if anyone has any law which they feel the situation may be in breach of please reply.

ht7