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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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My Mum in court next Friday - ***WON***


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Hi,

 

Apologies from the outset this is likely to be a long post - please bear with me as I could really do with some advice! My mum is in court next Friday as Lloyds have applied for a stay on her case. We are not sure what we need to do and what type of information we will need to take with us. Is this a proper hearing?

 

I understand that the stays seem to be going in the bank's favour at the moment - has anyone actually succeeded with this?

 

I am very annoyed at my mum having to go through this as the bank orignally made her an offer on 20 July (approx 1 week before the test case was announced). When we checked the paperwork we realised we had made an errror on the court form and should have claimed for a further £350ish but had added up two columns wrong (stupid I know, don't know how that happened as had already done my own claim and helped a few friends do theirs also).

 

She called and spoke to one of Lloyds solicitors who said not to worry about going through the process of changing the amount with the court as she could see the calculations herself but just to amend the amount on the paperwork and send it back and they would honour it. We couldn't believe they were being so straight-forward and figured that as the test case had just been announced they were clearing any outstanding cases quickly. How wrong we were....

 

Since then we have been chasing them for the money to no avail. My mum has had numerous phonecalls with the solicitors acting on behalf of LLoyds Bank. When they told her she was misinformed about being able to change the amount on the form she asked for another to be sent to her and signed it as it was and sent it straight back.

 

Since then we have heard from the court that Lloyds have applied for a stay on her case and this is to be heard next Friday. Can they do this when she has already accepted their offer twice?

 

Also should we have written to the court before now to object to the stay hearing?

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*bump*

 

is anyone there? Could really do with some advice. Spoke to bank's solicitors earlier in the vague hope that they might honour the offer and we would not have to go to. They made it clear that there was "no way this case would be settled out of court" and suggested our telephone dealings with them had been "unprofessional" - read stressed.

 

Don't think we kept a log of the calls - are we scuppered?

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Hadn't thought about the phonebill - thanks!

 

We have copies of both settlement letters. With the first (sent on 20 July) my mum crossed out the amount and replaced it with what it should have been had we added up the spreadsheet properly (sounds ridiculous I know, but the solicitors said that we should do that rather than going back to court to change it).

 

After not receiving the money my mum called them and they said that because she had changed the figures they wouldn't agree to it. She explained that she had been told to do that and they said the lady who instructed her to do it had since left the company.

 

She signed a second acceptance form this time for the stated amount and agrred to all the conditions, confidentiality etc. She did this beacause the test case had now been announmced and she wanted a quick resolution.

 

Still nothing.

 

On 20 Aug we received a letter from the court to say a hearing date had been allocated for late November. On 19 Oct we recieved another letter to say Lloyds hearing for a stay on the case would be heard on 9 November.

 

Can they do this??? What should we do now???

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See here for advice on what to take to court:

Stay: Hearing Bundle

Bundle for stay hearing

Stay: Skeleton Arguement

Skeleton argument for stay hearing

 

However, stays are usually granted. In your case, I think your best bet is to take the settlement offer letters, plus any phone records you can find and basically tell the judge exactly what you have posted above, you had a setlement offer before the OFT announcement which you accepted and LLoyds are using the waiver to renege on their written offer, and you have been doing your best since then to get Lloyds to honour thier agreement

 

Below is taken from Lloyds website:

Lloyds TSB - Answers to questions on bank charges

 

Q: What if I have already been made an offer?

A: We will stand by any offer to settle a complaint or court claim that we have already made to our customers. If you have received an offer to settle from us which is still outstanding we will be writing to you again shortly. Our letter will explain that customers have two months to decide whether to refuse our offer and wait for the decision in the test case. If you do choose to refuse an offer, and return the settlement amount to us, your complaint will be held and recorded by us until there is a final decision in the test case. We will then contact you again as soon as possible to finally resolve your complaint.

 

Q: I have already accepted an offer from you. Will my complaint be revisited?

A: If we have made a 'full and final settlement' which you have accepted, we believe it unlikely you would be awarded a further sum even if the test case indicates you could have claimed a potentially larger amount. However, accepting any such settlement does not stop you from asking for repayment on any further new charges incurred if the court finds they are unlawful.

 

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Sorry one more thing....Do we have to give the bank a copy of our case/papers before the hearing? I know that this is good practice but as it is next week, I don't think we will have a chance to get it together and send to them before then.

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You can accompany your mum to court either as:

 

 

(a) A Lay Representative who can represent anyone in court as long as the claimant is also present.

 

(b) as a 'Mackenzie Friend' who can accompany a claimant and be present to advise her during the hearing, but cannot address the court themselves.

 

Just inform the court usher on arrival at court. . Permission is at the discretion of the court, but is usually granted.

 

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Well you've already informed them that you had an offer, in an attempt to avoid wasting court time. You should mention this.

Spoke to bank's solicitors earlier in the vague hope that they might honour the offer and we would not have to go to.

 

Do we have to give the bank a copy of our case/papers before the hearing? I know that this is good practice but as it is next week, I don't think we will have a chance to get it together and send to them before then.

 

If the judge raises this, explain that you are a Litigant in Person and and unused to court procedures and that you assumed that a reputable company like Lloyds would honour their word.

 

Hopefully the judge will take a dim view on this and the chances are that

Lloyds solicitor will know nothing about the offer and will say that he is only there to request a stay. With luck he'll be sent away with a flea in his ear and told to settle.

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*bump*

 

If I am a 'lay representative' does that mean I will have to speak for the whole case or that my mum can do the main stuff and I can speak to the judge directly if needed?

 

Also, I notice that in the court bundle one of the items is an application for removal of the stay. As this is the stay hearing and one has not been put on the case yet should we include this?

 

Should we have sent this letter already and can we add it to the court bundle in case the stay is given? Soz, not really sure what to do with it....

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If I am a 'lay representative' does that mean I will have to speak for the whole case or that my mum can do the main stuff and I can speak to the judge directly if needed?

 

It will partly depend on the judge. Generally they will make allowance to litigants in Person, but you shouldn't bank on that. You ought to decide which of you is going to present the case and be prepared on that basis.

Also, I notice that in the court bundle one of the items is an application for removal of the stay. As this is the stay hearing and one has not been put on the case yet should we include this?

Take it with you and be ready to submit it if the judge wants to hear your objections. But hopefully it won't be needed.

 

You should concentrate on the fact that LLoyds have twice offered settlement which you accepted and that there is no need for a stay or wasting valuable court time since as far as you're concerned

the case was settled

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thanks (again!). Will be focusing on the fact they have already made an offer, don't really see why they should be allowed to go back on it because of test case but we will have to see what the judge says I guess!

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:-x aaagggghhhh - really need some help...am in court on Friday (24hours ish) and have a MAJOR problem....

 

Just been putting court bundles together with my mum and sorting out our defence etc. Have just realised that both the settlement offers from LLoyds are "strictly without predjudice - confidential" and not admissable in court.

 

On both occassions where they made an offer they sent another letter (dated the same day) which says they intend to defend the case in court. They have covered themselves completely.

 

What do we do about the settlement offer letters if we can't show then in court? Can we refer to them at all? They are our only proof that an offer was ever made.

 

Also in my mum's letter back accepting them she says "I accept this offer without prejudice" - can we include those???

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Hi Emsie.

 

LTSB have lost the privilege conferred by the phrase ‘Without Prejudice’, because they have reneged on their promise to settle and pay you. So you can show all the documents to the court. You can support this with the extract from LTSB’s Q & As, which Michael quoted in post 6 above. Also, I’ll find some suitable paragraphs on the subject to support your position further.

 

Furthermore, if a solicitor/barrister shows up, and you have enough time, you can approach him/her and draw their attention to the offer, pointing out the loss of privilege.This should at least throw him because he probably won’t know about it. It might induce him to check with LTSB there and then and possibly reconfirm the offer. That should mean that you get your money a bit quicker. You should also inform him that you will be applying to the court for a wasted costs order, to recompense you for the cost of preparing bundles and attending court needlessly.

 

Even it all goes your way, you must still go into court with the lawyer and explain that agreement to settle has been reached, so that it is on record.;)

 

If nobody shows up, then you do exactly the same thing as above with the judge, who I suspect will be a little displeased with LTSB. You might not win a wasted costs order, but it’s worth a try.

 

Let us know if you need anything more.

 

Els:)

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Thank-you so much for taking the time to find out the information for me. I did some research myself last night and found out the same sort of info on without prejudice matters (reporduced below) but wasn't sure how true it was. Your clarification has been really helpful and put my mind at ease somewhat. Will let you know how we get on!

 

Definition from Social Enterprise Coalition website:

"However, this does not mean that without prejudice communications can never be brought to the courts attention - they can be mentioned to explain delay and, most crucially, where an offer made in a without prejudice communication is accepted by the other party to the dispute, the act of acceptance can create a legally binding contract, upon which the trail of without prejudice communications becomes open and can be entered as evidence to enforce a partys rights".

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yep, thats the begger lol, also compile a spreadsheet detailing how much money you have spent on your court bundle, paper, ink, postage, £9.25 per hour (It takes about 25 hours average). and slap the barrister that you see with that, along with the WP letters and dont let them flannel you into saying you wont get wasted costs, cost it is at the judges discretion and he is NOT going to be happy at what LTSB have been up to :-) Good luck

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Lula

 

Lula v Abbey - Settled

Lula v Abbey (2) - Settled

Lula v Abbey (3) - Stayed

 

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Is the settlement to your satisfaction, the full amount of your claim?.

WARNING TO ALL

Please be aware of acting on advice given by PM .Anyone can make mistakes and if advice is given on the main forum people can see it to correct it ,if given privately then no one can see it to correct it. Please also be aware of giving your personal details to strangers

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Thank-you again everyone for giving me such great advice and help.

 

Am off on holiday tomorrow afternoon, in court with my mum in the morning. Will try and log on and let you know the outcome straight away as it might be of use to other people.

 

If it takes a long time though, I might not get a chance but will try my hardest and if not, will update you on my return!

 

Wish us luck, fingers crossed! x

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