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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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POC for Mint CC


mr elmo
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Just about to take mint to court now, but confused over what POC to use for credit cards, is the one in the templates libary enough, if I change the referenced to bank accounts to credit cards etc, or is there one for CC that I am being blind and just cant see?

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Hi mr elmo!

 

There's a really good PoC here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/94759-gandolfi-rbs.html#post1075176 that can be adapted to use for your credit card. :)

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cheers :)

 

IT seams that alot of the templates seam to be geared towards bank charges rather than credit card charges, maybe some credit card templates could be added (i.e there is a LBA for CC but no pre-lim!)

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here is the LBA for credit cards -http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/586-credit-store-card-letter.html

 

Just finished off a long ish stint at work and going to goto court today to submit the N1. Going to use those POC's and just change for credit cards etc

 

Am i right in thinking I need to take 2 copied of the N1 form, as well as 2 copies of the schedule of charges, and 2 copies of the chages showing the 8% intrest (I used hte advanced credit card spread sheet)

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Elmo,

 

Thanks for that.

 

Yep, you can take two copies of everything, one for the court and one for them to send to Defendant, however, I took three so I could get a court stamped copy for my records.

 

 

Post up your POC when you've finished I'd like to see that, I have three waiting to go at mo.

 

regards

 

BJ

 

:)

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these are the POC's im going to be using

 

PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

 

1. The Claimant had an account number xxxxxxxxxxxx, ("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened on or around xxxxx.

 

2. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant has automatically debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

3. A list of the charges (“the Schedule”) applied is attached to these Particulars of Claim.

 

4. The Claimant contends that:

 

a) The charges debited to the Account were punitive in nature; were not genuine pre-estimates of costs incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and were not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enriched the Defendant which exercised the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of

 

i) the Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 particularly but not limited to Regulations 5, 6 and 8 and Schedule 2, 1 e); and

 

ii) the common law relating to liquidated damages and penalties in contracts.

 

5. The defendant has, in addition, levied interest on these charges at the rate of 14.88%.

 

6. The Claimant avers that, by this action, the Defendant has sought to enrich itself by the consequences of unlawful action, specifically, unlawful penalty charges as detailed above and applied in terrorem.

 

 

7. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

 

a) the return of £x in charges and interest of £x thereon debited to the Claimant’s account and listed in the attached schedule

 

b) Court costs;

 

c) Interest under section 69 County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment at a daily rate of 0.022%.

 

 

I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true

so off to print out N1 *3, schedule of charges *3, schedule of chages page for the 8% intrest *3

 

using the southend of sea address on the N1 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/75836-rbs-contact-information.html#post1079050

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I chose against CI in the end, though I was considering it, but I like to keep things simple.

 

From what I understand you need to have asked for CI since the begining of the claim, so I wouldn't be able to bring it in now

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  • 1 month later...

Slight update - Claim was served on the 20'th Sept, they responded saying they would defend (by corbetts)

 

Today recieve letter dated 16'th offering me just over 1/2 my claim, of course Im rejecting it using rejection letter no 6 on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/25716-rejecting-offers.html Do I include the 8% sat interest in the claim amount or just state claim and the court fees?

 

In addition with all the strike action by royal mail recently is it worth me phoning them up to to let them know, or deliver a copy of a letter to my local corbetts office by hand (even though a different office is dealing with the claim)

 

Many Thanks

 

Elmo

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When you filed your claim at court, did you include the 8% interest on your claim form? You should be claiming for the penalty charges, 8% interest plus court fees at this stage. :)

 

I'd be inclined to send your communication by post (registered or special delivery as usual) but to fax a copy (if possible) to the Cobbetts office dealing with your claim as well. Or you could always email the person at Cobbetts who is dealing with your claim and attach a copy of what you're sending them. :)

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Hi

 

I claimed for the charges, interest charged as a result of charges, 8% interest + court fees. I asked as the offer rejection letters don't appear to mention the 8% interest.

 

Going to just post it, I did think I would be doing them a favor keeping them updated, but then I clicked that they only have 2 days to get a defense in, which I have not seen anything of yet!

 

So back to the question, in the rejection letter do I include the 8% intrest and add it in to the other amounts of money on that line?

 

Thanks :)

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Defence received in todays post - guess id best type it all in here. will get typing

 

Am i correct in thinking that its now waiting for a court date (or them offing me the full amount to save on their costs :))

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Sorry mr.elmo - I logged off quite early last night! With regards to the rejection letter, just alter one of the CAG rejection letters to include something along the lines of "as you may be aware, I recently filed a claim at xxxx county court to recover the charges applied to my credit card account. Therefore, the total amount I am now claiming is £xxxxx, which now includes additional interest at a rate of xxx". (Just a thought though, but if you've claimed the contractual rate of interest you don't claim 8% on top of this as well.)

 

Now that you've received the defence, basically it's a waiting game - they'll either offer you the full amount (plus interest of course) or they'll wait until shortly before the court date to pay up! ;)

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Covering letter

We are instructed on behalf of the above named.

We enclose by way of service the Defendant's defence.

We confirm that we have filed a copy of the same with the court.

Yours Faithfully

 

Cobbetts LLP

and the defence

In the blah blah county court

between

Mr Elmo claiment

-and-

Mint Credit Cards

 

Defence

 

1. This defence is filed and served without prejudice to the defendant's case that the particulars of claim do not disclose resaonable grounds fo bringing a clam against the defendant to recover the bank charges (and interest thereon) referred to in the particulars of claim or any other sum(s). In the even tthat the claim is not properly particularized then the defendant will apply to strike out the claim and/or for summary judgment in respect of the same.

 

2. On allocation the defendant invites the court to direct that there be a case management conference in order for the court to consider the making of appropriate orders to give the claimant the opportunity to properly particularize the claim.

 

3. no admissions are made as to what charges have been debited to the claiaments bank account.

 

4. in relation to the allegation that the bank charges amount to an unenforceable penalty the defendant pleads as follows:

 

4.1 in order for the claimant to sustain a claim that the charges debited by the defendant are in the nature of a penalty the claiment will need to prove (a) the clause(s) pirsiant to which the charges were applied ;(b) that the charges were applied due to a breach of contract by the claimant; and © identifying in each case the particular breach of contract (by reference to appropriate term(s) of the contract) that the charges related to. As presently pleased the claim does not plead these matters and therefore does not disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim that all or any of the charges referred to in the Particulars of Claim have been applied pursuant to an unenforceable penalty clause.

 

4.2 Until such time as the Claimant pleads the matters referred to in paragraph 4.1 above the Defendant is unable to plead to the claim brought against it and therefore (pending the provision of full and proper particulars of the claim) at this stage denies that any charges have been applied to the claimants bank account pursuant to unenforceable penalty clauses.

 

5. In relation to the allegation that the contractual provisions pursuant to which the charges have been applied are invalid pursuant to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 ("the Regulations").

 

5.1 The claimant is required to identify the contractual provision(s) that the claimant alleges are invalid by reference to the regulations. Until such time as these provisions are identified the defendant cannot (save as appears below) plead to the allegation referred to in paragraph 5 above. The defendant therefore reserves its right to plead further to the allegation once (and if) the claimant identifies the relevant contractual provisions.

 

5.2 In relation to the cae of the claimant that the contractual provisions are invalid pursuant to the regulations the defendant pleads as follows

 

5.2.1 Schedule 2 to the Regulations is an indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair (emphasis supplied)

 

5.2.2 if the claimant is to rely upon paragraph 1(e) of Schedule 2 to the Regulations then the claimant is required to pleas and prove in relation to each bank charge that is sought the matters referred ot in paragraph 5.1 above and all facts and matters relied upon in alleging that the sums paid are disproportionately high

 

5.2.3 In the circumstances no grounds are disclosed for a claim that the contractual provisions (what ever they are alleged to be - see paragraph 5.1 above) falls foul of the Regulations and in particular paragraph 1(e) of Schedule 2.

 

5.2.4 The defendant is therefore unable (save as appears below) to plead to this allegation beyond denying that any bank charges have been applied pursuant to terms which contravene the Regulations. The Defendant reserves its right to plead further to this allegation once (and if) the particulars referred to in paragraph 5.2.2 above are provided.

 

5.2.5 Without prejudice to paragraph 5.2.4 it is the case of the Defendant that the Regulations have no application because the charges amount to paying for services provided by the Defendant and the adequacy (or otherwise) of consideration paid under a contract for services is not an issue to be judge by reference to principles of fairness under the regulations.

 

6. The claimant's claim for costs not being sufficiently particularized, the Defendant is unable to plead and reserves the right to plead upon further particulars

.

 

7. Save as hereinbefore appears the Defendant joins issue with the Claimant on the claim(s) and denies that it is liable to the Claimant as alleged or at all.

 

Statement of truth.........

(sorry for any typo's etc testing my touch typing skills while not looking at the keyboard/screen)

 

So while most of it has flown right over my head, I am confused to their point 6 referring to costs, the only cost I am claiming is the court fee!

 

And why do they seam to think its for bank charges when its obviously a credit charges case...

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Sorry mr.elmo - I logged off quite early last night! With regards to the rejection letter, just alter one of the CAG rejection letters to include something along the lines of "as you may be aware, I recently filed a claim at xxxx county court to recover the charges applied to my credit card account. Therefore, the total amount I am now claiming is £xxxxx, which now includes additional interest at a rate of xxx". (Just a thought though, but if you've claimed the contractual rate of interest you don't claim 8% on top of this as well.)

 

Now that you've received the defence, basically it's a waiting game - they'll either offer you the full amount (plus interest of course) or they'll wait until shortly before the court date to pay up! ;)

 

No worries - we all have lives away from the PC! :)

 

Did what you said and modified a letter and sent if off today

 

With the court, Do I need to start preparing the court bundle now or is that step a fair bit away (if at all)

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Did what you said and modified a letter and sent if off today

 

Nice work :-)

 

With the court, Do I need to start preparing the court bundle now or is that step a fair bit away (if at all)

 

No need to start preparing anything at the moment- you've got a bit of breathing space for a little while now. ;) Hopefully, they'll pay up sooner rather than later now that they've realised you're serious about this. But if they do keep this up for a while longer, you've still got quite a lot of time before you need to start preparing the bundle. :)

 

With regards to the defence - sounds like a rather standard 'bank charges' defence (which they seem to 'cut and paste' and use for credit cards as well!) I'd be inclined to see what directions you receive from the court now. You should receive something from them soon (e.g, AQ) - and they'll let you know if they need you to submit any additional info/clarify the details of your PoC as well. In the meantime, file their 'defence' in your folder and sit back............. and wait awhile again! :grin:

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  • 2 weeks later...

It's difficult to predit mr elmo as it varies from bank to bank and also varies between current account and credit card claims.

 

When I claimed from Nat West on my current account, I think I waited approx. 6-8 weeks until they settled in full, but I've seen other claims settled much more quickly than this............ and others that have stretched out for months!

 

Sorry - I'm not being much help! But there really is no way to predict this one. Hopefully though, with this being a credit card claim, you should find that it progresses quite quickly. Particularly as the OFT test case has freed up the courts' time! :rolleyes:

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grr, rang the court to see if there had been any updates, and on the 29'th it was stayed pending the case in London. I will recieve this in the post in due course (the court were processing the admin from the 22'nt today so approx 7 days wait) Did I miss anythign in the post suggesting there would be some form of hearing or did the judge just look and deciede there and then? (guy on phone said he couldnt say)

 

So now do I have to wait for the letter in the post from the court before taking the next steps? and do the next steps come with a fee? (hope they dont)

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Ludicrous. Why the courts are staying credit card claims when they're absolutely nothing to do with the OFT test case is completely beyond belief. :mad:

 

Whether to object to this or not is (IMVHO) your decision only. Ultimately, you're the one who has to pay the application fee - which is non-recoverable as well. But at the end of the day, there's no reason for credit card claims to be stayed though, so have a look through here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/cases-stayed-pending-oft/114308-objection-stay-credit-card.html. It's written to object to a stay being placed on your claim, but it would be easy to change the wording to object to the stay remaining also.

 

I'm so sorry mr elmo, I honestly thought the end was in sight for you on this claim. x :(

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indeed, whats more annoying is my local court (Leeds) has in the past seamed to show common sense from what I could tell reading the forum.

 

Definetly going to send a modified form of that letter when I receive notice of the stay through the post - am I right in thinking the application fee is £75?

 

Thanks - I will get there eventually :)

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