I asked for staements on the 9 March in person. Arrived today, 16 letters full. Not however, the statements back to 2000 as requested.

Did you use the DPA Request in the Library?

Tell them that they are incomplete and that the clock is still ticking.

Yes, I used the template and the missing ones arrived this morning

I had the standard reply today from Colmore Row inviting me to take my complaint to the Ombudsman. Since I think that they all p**s in the same pot I will decline that offer. So what's next, another 14 day letter then off to court?

That's it folks, were on the road.

Case 6QZ25537

Amount claimed £985.00 with the option on interest

Court costs claimed £80

Full ahead on both engines and damn the torpedoes!

Great news - also send these details to the site staff so that they can log it in LITIGATION.

Just to let you know how they are now operating.

Both my wife and I have Lloyds accounts. Now, in a normal situation you can transfer money online immediately between accounts.

Firstly, this happened about a month ago. I went to transfer some money into my wifes account. Nothing unusual, we do it all the time. I clicked on the pay now button and instead of the 'transaction complete' page coming up, it showed a sheet for the payment to go in the day after. Odd?? So I cancelled that transaction and did it again. This time it went through.

This week, I wanted to transfer all my money over as soon as it came into my account and pay stuff out of my wifes account. So the transfer did the same thing, it came up 'pay the day after'. So I cancelled that and tried again. This time it said that the transfer would go through in 3-4 working days.

So I did manage, by another method to transfer the money but only by bypassing their system.

This is against all of their advertised method. Inter account transfers in the same branch are advertised as clearing immediately and Inter account cheques clear in 24 hours.

Now they are going to take charges out of an account that only has their bank loan in it. I will then cancel the bank loan payment and pay it over the counter.

Then they will have to take me to court for their charges.

Here is the defence filed by Lloyds solicitors.

Any points to discuss?

DEFENCE

1. The Defendant Lloyds TSB Bank pic (the Bank) is a bank. It is admitted that the Claimant has been a customer of the Bank at all material times.

2. By opening an account with the Bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the Bank for the provision of banking services. The Bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At account opening a customer is provided with details of the Bank's charges, currently in a leaflet a guide to our banking charges. By using the account, the customer acknowledges that the

charges are incorporated into the contract. For personal customers, a number of

services are provided for free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the Bank.

Such services presently include, but are not limited to, providing;

cheques bank statements the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order debit cards ATMs (cash machines).

3. By maintaining the account in credit, or within any limit agreed with the Bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. If the customer fails to ensure that thereare sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request for a payment to be made from the Bank's own funds. If the Bank makes payment, or returns the payment, it provides a service as specified in the leaflet and makes a charge in accordance with the terms of the contract. On page 1 of the leaflet, the Bank explains that "there are normally no charges for everyday banking at Lloyds TSB when your account is in credit.

When you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. Where you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use special services, such as copy statements, we will make a charge. This guide explains how these charges work, and when they will apply.

If you want to use a service that we haven't listed, we'll tell you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead".

4. There is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the Bank's loss.

5. The customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of a month, and which will appear as debits on the following month's statement. Customers are

warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without

arrangement with the Bank. If the customer fails to remedy the position, and

payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the

customer is warned by letter.

6. The charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful.

7. The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. The charges are terms which relateto the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the Bank, and pursuantto Regulation 6 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.

8. In the premises:

8.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty;

8.2 the Bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable;

8.3 it is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation.

9. The Claimant's claim is denied in its entirety. It is further denied that the Claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the Bank .

This is the same defence that many have had from Lloyds. They are claiming that the charges are a service. :D

Push it all the way to the court, they will settle, nuff said. I did, I won (£2915) they blinked after all possibilities were exhausted at the Allocation Questionaire stage. They WILL NOT take the final step, it is all about intimidation, do not be intimidated! They are the Pussies, not you! :D

Baron, I assume that Lloyds defence is in response to your piddling £985 claim (piddling to them, that is, not you!) If so, then there is no way that they will push it all the way. Expect a cheque.

Onwards and upwards

Elsinore

What's is the Alloction questionairre stage? Is it the one where I list my evidence?

Hi

Yes they have done this to me too! I asked them why, and they said it was a new system they were trying out, yeah right.

Barty

Hi,

The Allocation Questionnaire stage is when you have submitted a Moneyclaim and the bank have acknowledged they are going to defend it. They then send you an allocation questionnaire which you then detail your claim and then get the claim redirected to your home town. Most Moneyclaims are done via Northampton County Court - but at the questionnaire stage it can be moved to your nearest court!!!

I know because I spoke to their helpline today - my Moneyclaim finishes on bank hoiday but still have not received their questionnaire - (this means they could settle before the days out ) so I was asking the same question you have. If I do not hear from them with their questionnaire I can then default. (basically won).

Hope this helps you.

Lorraine

Thanks for all the really helpful info.

Lloyds sent their defence to me and said a copy is also going to the court. My claim was put in on 26th April, so far nothing else.

A quick thought. You pay for your account through a bank service charge each month. You also pay for any interest incurred at the same time. You cannot get away from it even if it is the extortionate overdraft rates they charge, arround 29%. The rest seems to be loading on the account.

Lorraine if i could just correct you.

You will only get an allocation questionaire if the bank puts in a defence, once they do this the case is moved to your local court and they send the allocation questionaire.

Moneyclaim will show that they have put in a defence before you get your allocation questionaire.

Hi Everyone,

I would like to to make a small point, let's not get sidetracked by LTSB's service charge wording. I recently received my information requested via the DPA and penalties are clearly described as the following: Overdraft access FEE, Overdraft INTEREST, Unpaid DD, Underpaid SO and Service Charge. Therefore, as far as my understanding goes, and I'm sure many of you are on the same wavelength. We are claiming for all except SERVICE CHARGE. (although I am also including overdraft interest, they can haggle that).

Don't get it twisted, and don't let them twist you up either.!!!

I've read a lot of threads and a lot of posts but I can't find a definite answer to how we tackle the "we are providing a service" angle of the defence.

I am going to state that Lloyds are attempting to clock the penalty by calling it a service, and my evidence is.

I will then list the various letters I've received, their T&C's, the OFT report (which mentions trying to claim the penalty is a service charge), and possible Macnamera's interview.

Is this what everyone else is doing?

Should i also include, that if Lloyds insist on claiming it's a service charge then there charges are unreasonable under Supply

of Goods and Services Act 1982 s.15.

The bank is a signatory to the Banking Code.

Term 5.4 states: We will tell you the charge for any other service or product before we provide that service or product, and at any time you ask.

By admitting the charge is for a service, they are bound by the code to tell you before they provide the service. It is implied in this that they are to give you the option of whether or not you want them to provide the service - assumption that you want the service is NOT implied...

nice one spiceskull

nice one spiceskull

All said and done, the OFT has said that the charges are not fair or lawful...the bank won't defend this...I feel certain of that.

Not only that - it's an accepted point of law that dressing up a penalty as a service is known legally as "cloaking a service".

Judges are not stupid - they will see it for what it really is.

Not having seen the defence before... It isn't a bad attempt in all honesty... Probably the best justification I've seen so far... (IMHO not that it's actually going to make any difference as they won't see it in court...)

In essence (correct me if I'm wrong) what they are saying is that the charge isn't actually for going over your overdraft etc but is a charge for the 'freebies services' that they provide to 'good customers' at a loss... So they are not penalising you as such... Just witholding a benefit...

(in fact reading that again it could be read in two different ways... It could also be read as you are subsidising the 'good customers')

The bank is a signatory to the Banking Code.

 

Term 5.4 states: We will tell you the charge for any other service or product before we provide that service or product, and at any time you ask.

 

By admitting the charge is for a service, they are bound by the code to tell you before they provide the service. It is implied in this that they are to give you the option of whether or not you want them to provide the service - assumption that you want the service is NOT implied...

Playing devils advocate...

They are not saying that the option of them to provide the service is implied... They are stating that that is in the contract as a service...And it is your choice as to whether you utilise that service... And the charges incurred upon using that service are implied into the contract... Note that they also state...

If you want to use a service that we haven't listed, we'll tell you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead