Yes, I haven't had an Amex card for years; the only contractual arrangement I have at the moment is with BA's Executive Club, which is why I sued them instead of Amex. I think the 'missing airmiles' is therefore entirely a matter for BA and nothing to do with Amex, but the vouchers were issued as a result of a contract between me and Amex. Amex's view, with which I have some sympathy, is (paraphrased) 'we told them to issue the vouchers, so our part of the contract was completed'.

That's a great idea, thanks. I'd thought of valuing them as ten flights to Region 1 (which requires 9000 airmiles per flight) and coming up with an average price, but your method is superior because there would be no dispute on the actual price of replacement. Do you happen to have the expertise to know how to redraft the claim accordingly? And how to deal with the claims regarding the flight vouchers? The vouchers are 'companion flights' - a sort of 'buy one get one free' deal, so for example could be worth only the cost of a flight from Gatwick to Glasgow, or could be used for a world round trip. So how can I draft the claim in such a way that a judge can determine the value - any ideas? And would anyone happen to know whether I can simply also amend the claim to add Amex as 'second defendant'? Thanks again for the help, much appreciated

Hi - I put this in the 'legalities' section but it seems a bit quiet over there; hopefully someone here might have more of a clue than me in how to write a non-monetary claim. I need to amend my claim against BA/Amex this week or have it struck out, so any guidance would be greatly appreciated. The problem is that my claim is a non-monetary one having a value of less than £5000, but I appear to have worded the claim so badly that the Judge has ordered that the claim be dismissed unless I amend and rectify it. The background - in 2002 I got a BA/Amex card, and racked up around 140,000 airmiles on it over the next few years - most gained at the rate of 1 per £1 spent (in those days I earned a reasonable living, and made a lot of flights); these were credited to my BA airmiles account (the 'BA Executive Club'). I also earned one BA flight voucher each year between 2002 and 2005 for spending (as I recall) more than £10,000 in that year. However, I only received and used two of those vouchers - two others were either unissued or didn't make their way to me. I noticed they were missing in 2005, and complained - I also complained about a number of other matters unrelated, and in 2006 terminated the relationship; they cancelled the card, we agreed a much reduced balance, and I paid off this outstanding balance in full. I still had circa 93,000 unused airmiles on my 'BA Executive Club' account, and from time to time over the past two or three years I wrote a stroppy letter to BA demanding my vouchers. Around the middle of last year I started escalating the dispute, as I wanted to use most of the airmiles and the flight vouchers for a family trip - I couldn't use the air miles until I had the accompanying flight vouchers, and the airmiles account was effectively dormant for three years. A nice customer service woman at BA Executive Club emailed me saying she'd extended the validity period by three months (if the airmiles account is unused for more than three years then the whole lot are taken away), and that all I needed to do was purchase something from one of their partners in order to trigger a new three year period. So a couple of weeks before the extension expired, I bought something from John Lewis and something else on ebay. The transactions appeared on the BA Executive Club website prior to the three month period expiring. So one would think that all was well and good..... Wrong! The 93,000 airmiles vanished as soon as the three months were up, despite qualifying purchases having been credited within the period. Cue two stroppy letters from me which went unanswered; I filed a claim in January this year, having sent a suitable letter before action. Here’s where it starts going wrong – my claim was a ‘non-monetary’ one, as I was seeking the return of my missing airmiles and the two flight vouchers. The final part of my claim reads thus: • Provision of one flight voucher to replace missing one issued by the Defendant • Provision of one flight voucher approved by Defendant’s partner but apparently unissued by Defendant • Reinstatement of 93,243 airmiles to Claimant’s airmiles account with the Defendant • General Damages for pain and suffering and loss of amenity of up to £1000 or one further flight voucher The judge has ordered, in part, the following: ‘The Claim as pleaded is defective in that the Court does not have power, except in declaratory terms, to order what the Claimant is requesting. Accordingly, unless the Claimant amend and rectify his Claim........ then it will be struck out’. So my first question is what I need to change/add to stop it being struck out. Is it simply that I need to put a value on the items (e.g. ‘Reinstatement of 93,243 airmiles to Claimant’s airmiles account or £XXXX to represent the cost of nine flights to Region 1 that would cost 9000 airmiles or £XXX each’)? Or is there something more fundamentally wrong with the claims that require a rewrite? I think the difficulty has arisen because I have made a ‘non-monetary claim’ – guidance would be appreciated! The second issue is that the Defendant (BA) is arguing that the contract was not between itself and me, but between Amex and me. It is certainly true that I signed terms with Amex not BA, but Amex has said in previous correspondence that they passed the voucher requests to BA at the correct time, therefore their view is that it’s BA’s problem, not theirs. So the second question is whether I can simply re-file or amend the claim naming Amex as ‘Second Defendant’, so that they can argue it out between them? My view is that the only current contract I have is with BA, which has undertaken to exchange my airmiles for flights and to add airmiles to my account when I make qualifying purchases. Thus Amex cannot be a defendant in the first claim listed above (where I want my miles reinstated) because they a not a party to that contract. However, they may be the correct party to sue with regard to flight vouchers, as BA are saying that they simply hand out vouchers that have been approved by Amex, therefore Amex bear liability if such liability can be proved. I hope some of you might be able to assist, and would appreciate any advice.

A Statutory Demand is a rapid route to making someone bankrupt, but the issuer rarely follows through. It appears in this case that they tried to scare you in '97 with an SD but then chose not to proceed to bankruptcy proceedings. Bear in mind that anyone can download the standard Statutory Demand form and 'issue' it; there's no court involved and no fees to pay, so it's a way of scaring a debtor without incurring cost. However - it's very important to give it your fullest attention and take it very seriously, because there's little to stop the creditor then making you bankrupt. There are, however, several safeguards in place - for example a Statutory Demand generally has to be served in person on the debtor (not simply posted), so they can be very difficult instruments for a creditor to use against a debtor who is determined to avoid service. In your case an SD may have been properly served in 1997, but it can't be used to support a bankruptcy petition in 2010. The creditor needs to serve you personally with a new SD for that to happen. It appears they don't have a current address for you, so it's unlikely there's an imminent threat from them. Your former housemate might have bailiffs round trying to get your goods if you have outstanding CCJ's at that address, but as long as you don't live there there's little they can do. If you really want to go bankrupt then you could accelerate the process and contact Scotcall and suggest they make the application (this will save you the fees), but frankly I doubt whether they'd want to expend more money in the hope of extracting some from your bankruptcy - the sums just don't add up for them unless you have equity in your home or have some other easily liquidatable (is that a word?!!) assets. But bankruptcy is a really big step; are you sure you want to do this? How much money are we talking about? Is it mainly to one creditor, or is it a lot of smallish amounts to many creditors? There's lots of people here who can advise on debt issues and the advantages/disadvantages of bankruptcy; see what they say? Hope that's useful and some comfort, but I don't have any special expertise so there may be inaccuracies.

Hi - I'm stuck on this one, and not sure whether it should go here or in the Amex section. However, it's a matter purely regarding legal procedures and the correct way to write a claim (the American Express/British Airways aspect seems irrelevant) so hopefully this is the right place. The problem is that my claim is a non-monetary one having a value of less than £5000, but I appear to have worded the claim so badly that the Judge has ordered that the claim be dismissed unless I amend and rectify it by next week. The background - in 2002 I got a BA/Amex card, and racked up around 140,000 airmiles on it over the next few years - most gained at the rate of 1 per £1 spent (in those days I earned a reasonable living, and made a lot of flights); these were credited to my BA airmiles account (the 'BA Executive Club'). I also earned one BA flight voucher each year between 2002 and 2005 for spending (as I recall) more than £10,000 in that year. However, I only received and used two of those vouchers - two others were either unissued or didn't make their way to me. I noticed they were missing in 2005, and complained - I also complained about a number of other matters unrelated, and in 2006 terminated the relationship; they cancelled the card, we agreed a much reduced balance, and I paid off this outstanding balance in full. I still had circa 93,000 unused airmiles on my 'BA Executive Club' account, and from time to time over the past two or three years I wrote a stroppy letter to BA demanding my vouchers. Around the middle of last year I started escalating the dispute, as I wanted to use most of the airmiles and the flight vouchers for a family trip - I couldn't use the air miles until I had the accompanying flight vouchers, and the airmiles account was effectively dormant for three years. A nice customer service woman at BA Executive Club emailed me saying she'd extended the validity period by three months (if the airmiles account is unused for more than three years then the whole lot are taken away), and that all I needed to do was purchase something from one of their partners in order to trigger a new three year period. So a couple of weeks before the extension expired, I bought something from John Lewis and something else on eBay. The transactions appeared on the BA Executive Club website prior to the three month period expiring. So one would think that all was well and good..... Wrong! The 93,000 airmiles vanished as soon as the three months were up, despite qualifying purchases having been credited within the period. Cue two stroppy letters from me which went unanswered; I filed a claim in January this year, having sent a suitable Letter Before Action. Here’s where it starts going wrong – my claim was a ‘non-monetary’ one, as I was seeking the return of my missing airmiles and the two flight vouchers. The final part of my claim reads thus: • Provision of one flight voucher to replace missing one issued by the Defendant • Provision of one flight voucher approved by Defendant’s partner but apparently unissued by Defendant • Reinstatement of 93,243 airmiles to Claimant’s airmiles account with the Defendant • General Damages for pain and suffering and loss of amenity of up to £1000 or one further flight voucher The judge has ordered, in part, the following: ‘The Claim as pleaded is defective in that the Court does not have power, except in declaratory terms, to order what the Claimant is requesting. Accordingly, unless the Claimant amend and rectify his Claim........ then it will be struck out’. So my first question is what I need to change/add to stop it being struck out. Is it simply that I need to put a value on the items (e.g. ‘Reinstatement of 93,243 airmiles to Claimant’s airmiles account or £XXXX to represent the cost of nine flights to Region 1 that would cost 9000 airmiles or £XXX each’)? Or is there something more fundamentally wrong with the claims that require a rewrite? I think the difficulty has arisen because I have made a ‘non-monetary claim’ – guidance would be appreciated! The second issue is that the Defendant (BA) is arguing that the contract was not between itself and me, but between Amex and me. It is certainly true that I signed terms with Amex not BA, but Amex has said in previous correspondence that they passed the voucher requests to BA at the correct time, therefore their view is that it’s BA’s problem, not theirs. So the second question is whether I can simply re-file or amend the claim naming Amex as ‘Second Defendant’, so that they can argue it out between them? My view is that the only current contract I have is with BA, which has undertaken to exchange my airmiles for flights and to add airmiles to my account when I make qualifying purchases. Thus Amex cannot be a defendant in the first claim listed above (where I want my miles reinstated) because they a not a party to that contract. However, they may be the correct party to sue with regard to flight vouchers, as BA are saying that they simply hand out vouchers that have been approved by Amex, therefore Amex bear liability if such liability can be proved. I hope some of you might be able to assist, and would appreciate any advice.

What happened next? You seem to have done your usual good job of grinding them into the ground, but what happened in the end? Regards, Michael

Any up to date news on this one? Seems a very interesting situation re. counterclaim - what's happened in the last couple of months?

I filed against my bank last year for the full period since I opened the account in '97. Naturally they only supplied copy statements for the last six years, so I estimated the previous three years at £500 each and claimed for those amounts plus interest. As you might expect, their defence sought to bar penalty fees outside the six year 'limit' (which is of course in itself a false limitation), however my view was and is that the Limitation Act timelines commence when the unlawful activity was discovered, not when it was perpetrated. Furthermore they disputed my £1500 estimate, and had gone to great trouble in calculating what they thought the amounts for those 'lost' years should be. The simple response to this of course is that I recalled that the fees were around or even above that level, but that I would be very happy to alter the estimate to the correct amount as soon as they produce the statements. In the absence of documentary evidence, the court is more likely to believe your account of the estimate. It may be, for example, that you specifically recall a difficult period in your life at that time when you were getting several charges per day. In my case they not only paid the whole claim in full (inc. the full £1500 estimation), but paid an extra +£1000 above the claim for my additional expenses, just a couple of days before Mercantile Court. Shame - I was looking forward to getting up in the High Court after all those boring ones in Lambeth County Court! So don't hesitate in pursuing those +6yr penalties plus interest - I have yet to hear of anyone failing to recover these (assuming they've followed the process correctly). And don't let them put you off near the end - while it's tempting to take the part settlement, it's much more satisfying to go the distance and get ALL your money back. Thanks again to everyone here for the ongoing help and advice. This site is a fantastic resource, and continues to throw up more and more useful information. P.S. The information regarding Barclays keeping customer statements for 12 years is crucial - can someone provide a cite for that? And while I note that an earlier poster said they expected a bonfire soon at Barclays, it is a criminal offence for them to destroy documents they are reasonably aware may be required in evidence. No-one would dare order such a bonfire, and if they did they'd go to jail for something like perverting the course of justice or something similar.

Tiny bit of extra info: yes, Triton House is accepted as the 'address for service', but any letter you write to that address has to be forwarded by them to Coventry - I spoke with Coventry on the phone yesterday and they said that sometimes letters can take "weeks" to arrive in Coventry. Therefore strongly suggest claimants serve papers to Triton House in London, but correspond with Coventry! (by the way, my signature seems to have disappeared, along with the option to edit it in the 'user cp' section above?)

Just a tiny language point about the phrase 'full and final settlement' as opposed to 'settlement in full'. Defendants will make low offers 'in full and final settlement' that you're not obliged to accept, so don't take from BW's comment above that you're required to accept any 'full and final' offer. 'Full and final settlement' in conjunction with a low offer simply means that if you accept their offer you undertake not to proceed with another claim over the same dispute - if you accept the offer then the case is 'finalised'. However, 'settlement in the full amount of the Claim' means you get every penny that you have claimed - I think this is what BW was trying to get across. It is certainly true that if your claim is 'settled in full' then it would be difficult to push on for a hearing. Regards, Michael

Hi Rob - I didn't provide a new schedule, nor did I go via the Court. I simply offered a settlement of £6000 plus court costs to take account of extra charges and interest applied since I issued the Claim. As I recall, these comprised around £400 with the remainder (£700-ish) being made up of my own out of pocket expenditure and time taken in preparing for the hearing. I think, like many of us, that if the bank had simply refunded the penalty charges (circa £1500) when I first asked them to, then I wouldn't have claimed interest or the return of the charges before 2000. But as soon as it was clear they wanted to make a fight of it my gander went up(!) and I resolved to go all the way. I think it was advantageous that I had some previous experience of suing people, which is why I would encourage others to go all the way - it's not as scary as one might think. Regards, Michael

My own view was that the six year time bar starts when the customer first became aware that the charges were unlawful, not when the charges were applied. In addition you can argue that the consequential losses fall within the last six years - e.g. you will today be paying interest or will have lost the opportunity to make interest on savings on sums deducted more than six years ago. I therefore think it is worth pursuing, and that the customer can submit a claim based on an estimate because it is not reasonable to expect the customer to anticipate unlawful actions by the bank. You are in an even better position, as you have preserved the evidence you need to prove such a claim. The fact that the bank will settle such claims indicates that they may expect to be found liable. Regards, Michael

My penalty charges were around £1500 going back six years, but I claimed back to 1997 and for other related charges such as loan arrangement fees. Got the usual offers - £750 when claim was issued, then £2500 a week or so before it was listed for hearing at Mercantile Court, then up to £3500 when there were a couple of days to go. I have no legal training, but have some legal knowledge and over the years have successfully sued people and organisations without paying solicitors, both as an individual and on behalf of my employer. I also found this site and others very valuable and supportive. Some points which might be of some use for others: 1. Don't restrict yourself to going back just six years - in my case the bank didn't supply copy statements for the three years between when I opened the account in 1997 and 2000, therefore I estimated these at £1500. They argued that it was my responsibility to prove this figure by producing my own copies of statements from that time. I argued that it was not reasonable to expect a customer to anticipate unlawful actions by the bank, therefore it was for the bank to produce evidence to counter my estimation. They eventually paid my estimate, plus interest, in full. 2. I claimed for *everything* that came out of my account and went to the bank - including such items as arrangement fees for overdrafts and loans, arguing that these were required to service a situation caused in part by the bank's unlawful removal of monies from my accounts. I also claimed for monthly account charges for my Premier account, arguing that the bank was in breach of contract by its unlawful actions, therefore any withdrawal of funds from my account for any purpose were made while in breach, therefore *everything* should be refunded. 3. I did everything via email, despite numerous attempts by them to call me. Luckily I also had emails going back more than two years requesting my bank charges be reviewed, which together with the recent emails with the legal department provided a useful chain of evidence. 4. Consider using PDF format when you email - I sent all emails as PDF attachments, which have slightly more evidential weight (and gravitas) than a simple email. I also changed all my Excel spreadsheets into PDF's before sending, again because a) it looks more professional b) all meta data is stripped out and c) the process 'fixes' the data at that date (Excel docs usually show different figures if opened on a later date because they recalculate data upon opening) 5. If you're contacted prior to the court date and settlement is offered, make sure you include all recent charges and interest in the settlement. My original claim was for sub-£5k - I settled for £6100, which represented my claim plus new charges and interest to date, together with extra costs in preparing for the case; my original Claim was for under £5k. 6. Don't let them credit the settlement amount to your own account if you think they'll snatch it and withdraw your overdraft facilities: The bank's solution for getting the money to me prior to the Court date was to put it in my Barclays account. I refused, on the grounds that it was *my* money therefore it was my choice where it was to be deposited. They sent a bank cheque special delivery. 7. Don't roll over too early when settlement is agreed - I requested a 14 day stay from the Court to allow time for the cheque to arrive and clear, rather than apply to close the case immediately settlement was agreed. 8. I missed a trick and only claimed statutory interest at 8%. What I *should* have done was claim for contractual interest at the bank's unauthorised overdraft rate of 22.5% going back to '97. However I didn't realise this was a possibility and had already issued the Claim before reading this and other forums properly. I therefore stated as part of the settlement agreement that I reserved the right to reclaim contractual interest at some later date. (I believe my right to claim contractual interest at a future date is not prejudiced by this being a 'full and final' settlement, as the Claim did not claim for contractual interest. Any views on this?) 9. Don't be put off by the Court process itself; as long as you're prepared you'll find it straightforward - the fast track in particular is geared towards favouring and facilitating ordinary members of the public to prosecute their case, and my previous experience is that Judges will bend over backwards to put you at ease and help you present your case. Just make sure you do your homework, and bring all your paperwork so that you can back up anything you say. That's all the tips I can think of. I think probably the most important one is to ensure that they know that you're happy to go all the way. In my case I was actually very disappointed not to get to Mercantile Court last week in order to have a Judge review the issues, but once they offered full settlement I had no other option but to take the offer and inform the Court. So make sure they're aware that you're not scared of going all the way. Regards, and good luck.

I've got a Smart car, a 2004. I think yours would be a 2003, therefore it must have the newer engine which doesn't suffer from the particular problem the 600cc engines had. The warranty is dependent upon service schedules being adhered to, so you've got a problem. Contractually they don't have to do anything for you. The dealer wouldn't get any of his cost rebated from the manufacturer/warranty vendor, therefore he's not going to do anything for you - why should he? I should think the best you might achieve is to pay trade cost for the parts and try to negotiate a lower price on the labour. Frankly, you're in a poor position to make demands, so see what they'll do as a favour. Seeing as you're out of warranty, and if the dealer won't give you a deal on the work - go to one of the independents. I go to Smartarse Design in Watford, who are passionate and reasonable - they would be my first port of call. Also try asking on the large number of Smart car sites and forums in the UK. Here's one: smartimes magazine but there's lots of others. I'm guessing, but an independent will do you a much better price - at a guess you could get a whole new engine for less than £2k. Hope this helps; regards Michael

No I didn't - I should learn by now to keep a cheap camera in the car at all times for just these situations!