My Northern Rock/NRAM mortgage has been reviewed. Letter 1 says they have overcharged me, and have knocked £940 off the unsecured part of the Together Loan. Letter 2 says I have underpaid the unsecured part of my Together Loan, and they want £153.15. 1) I have never missed a payment. 2) WTF?

I regularly get statements from Clydesdale Mastercard where the interest charged per month is higher than the minimum payment; there is a regular debit of £3, but aside from that, there is no use on the account (their pin change service has always resulted in the card not working). The interest is around £10 more than the payment. Is this actually allowed?

Here is the agreement, which is not accessible on their main product or support pages, but which you can access by going through 4 separate links. http://www.mamut.com/media/products/license/Mamut_User_Agreement_int.pdf I realise we're at the end of what can be usefully put forward on the forum, but any final thoughts based on the agreement (which does not come with the software, but which you have to hunt) would be gratefully received - and NOT taken as anything other than learned opinion!

They're ignoring my comments on distance selling etc., and have sent this by post: -------- Payment for the above is now long overdue. Please settle the outstanding amount immediately. Failure to do so will lead to the claim being transferred to debt collection. If the claim is transferred to a debt collection agency or a Court of Law your Mamut licenses will, in accordance with the Mamut Service Agreement and the Mamut License Agreement, be reduced to the product Mamut Free until the account is settled. -------- Doubly annoying, as the "Mamut Free" thing doesn't happen; the app says your service agreement is out of date, then quits. Do I just pay now? Debt collection, Court of Law, etc. and they've ignored the substance of my previous correspondence

No. When I bought it, I used it no problem until I needed an update, then I found I had to do the service agreement. It now says on the website "Mandatory service agreement" - and they say it's always been that way, but they also say they spoke to me on the phone when I took out the service agreement; I couldn't have taken it out separately if it was mandatory when buying the software - plus - I couldn't have known I couldn't get the update without it, if the programme didn't run without it, as I wouldn't have known it needed an update if I couldn't open it, etc. A moot point I suppose, as they're singing a different song. I am still working on the principle that I shouldn't be held to an agreement renewal without being asked whether I agree.

Interesting event - and one that makes everything moot. The software won't work without the service agreement, so it's £150 for the software, but a further £110 per annum to use it. I now can't access my accounts to print off last year's. I may well have to pay to avoid inputting a year of accounts, but then again - I may just be pig-headed and input the whole lot again in another application!

Again - thanks much. d

The reply Good Evening David, Thank you for your email which I received today. We have indeed been in contact before but as mentioned before & as per our terms & conditions, the invoice remains to be paid. Best regards, ------- Thoughts? Say nothing? Repeat email?

Latest sent by me (I've been abroad - as opposed to "a broad") Dear George and Accounts department: As you are aware, I have queried the situation whereby an ongoing agreement is stipulated as a mandatory occurrence. I have communicated this disagreement to you several times, and asked that you void the invoice for the Service Agreement for the year which I neither requested nor used. To be more direct: I do not wish to pay the invoice number as above. You will be aware that an agreement to agree is void in English law and therefore unenforceable. This is aside from other issues relating to the Distance Selling Regulations which, likewise, give grounds to cancel. I hope you understand, All the best, David ------------ We shall see.

Thank you so much kraken and slick (Kraken and Slick: a new crime-busting series?) I shall send Kraken's message, and keep you appraised.

Thanks slick132, This is their reply: Dear David, Thank you for your email but the invoice remains & cannot be cancelled. When you purchased the software from myself on 9th December 2010, I explained the yearly service agreement & everything you receive with it in that telephone conversation & so there is no uncertainty as to what you 100% receive on an annual basis with this service agreement, then please see the below: • Full & unlimited support (telephone, email & online) between the hours of 9am to 4pm Monday to Friday • Any / all updates or upgrades within the market are included such as new VAT or EU Laws • You are allocated a personal / dedicated account manager for all queries which is myself in your case • Minimum of one free software version upgrade per year & any other change in the market • Use of the software of an annual basis including the apple applications available for unlimited download Please again see the invoice you received at the time that also states the same terms you question: Our yearly service agreement has always been mandatory & is the same for all 700,000 current Mamut Customers & provides an upgrade every year around March / April. It is not as you say “in case” an upgrades occur. Hmmm Thoughts?

Some correspondence - From me Dear George, Thank you for your email, and for cancelling my service agreement. What is meant by the current invoice remaining? I'm assuming that it does not mean that the invoice is to be paid, as I haven't actually used any of your service facilities outwith the previous year, for which I of course paid. In terms of a mandatory renewal: I'm sure the meaning is automatic rather than mandatory - as the whole point of a limited term contract is that it is - by definition - limited, and renewal is at the agreement of both parties; it would be a funny old world if new contracts could be enforced by just one side! In terms of both three months notice being required, this would also be odd, as the point of renewal would be so far off as to necessitate some kind of prescience on the part of whichever party might not wish to renew; who could possibly know that a quarter of a year in advance? I'm sure I have the wrong end of the stick, but could you please confirm that the invoice is indeed for information only, and does not require action on my part? Thanks so much for your time and patience, David From them Dear David, Thank you for your email. Unfortunately the invoice remains to be paid as you did not cancel within 3 months which is our Mamut Policy & as per our terms & conditions which I also emailed you plus where it is stated in the original invoice from last year (also emailed to you). I am sorry this is not what you want to hear but these are Mamuts terms. From me Dear George, Thank you for your email. It is indeed unfortunate! It seems a tad unfair that I should be charged for something I haven't used. I bought the software without the service agreement. When I tried to find updates, I discovered that I could only get updates with the service agreement. Leaving aside the fact that, while I am all for paying extra for software service and support, charging for non-major upgrades sets Mamut in a relatively small club in the world of software suppliers; most software companies charge only for major updates, and only when they arrive. Your charge seems to be "in case" an upgrade occurs. Anyway - I wanted the update, so I phoned the number on the service page, and bought the service agreement. At no point was it mentioned that renewal was automatic (let alone compulsory). I see now that the service is now listed as mandatory. This wasn't the case when I bought the software, as I would certainly have had second thoughts about buying a product where the initial charge still did not mean one could use the product! I paid at the time, and used it to update. I haven't had cause to use it for support, or to update subsequently. Nor was I even aware that my agreement was ongoing. My problem, on an ethical level is this: 1. Having bought the software, I am being further charged mandatorily to use it. 2. I am being charged for [updates and support] I have not used. 3. The idea that an agreement can have mandatory renewal is counter-intuitive: if it is an agreement, then I would - by definition - need to agree to the renewal. I can see where automatic renewal might occur, but not compulsory. 4. I can see where three months notice would be necessary during the course of a fixed-term agreement, but once the agreement is due for renewal, the agreement - by definition - is reaching its conclusion, and therefore notice should not be necessary. This seems to have been brought about by my buying the software prior to the mandatory service agreement, and purchasing [what I thought was] a year's service support subsequently. I apologise for any confusion this has caused, and I would greatly appreciate it if you could see your way to cancelling the current invoice. All the best, David

Thanks for all the advice, and thanks for your thoughts, Kraken1 & Slick 132

Hi, Thanks for the advice. I had a hunt online - nothing was ever sent or signed. In a sub-sub page of the product service description (NOT the product description) it says if you instal the app, you are bound by the User Agreement, which is available as a PDF. The only mention of time is this: "4. Duration and renewal of the Mamut Service Agreement From the date on which you enter into a Mamut Service Agreement it will, as a main rule, remain in effect for one year, calculated from the invoice date, and be renewed automatically for one year at a time, unless otherwise agreed. Please note that the Mamut Service Agreement will in respect of certain software licenses remain in effect from the invoice date until the first yearend, and then be renewed automatically by additional agreement terms with a duration of one calendar year at a time, unless otherwise agreed." So as far as I can see - they are defining the contract as needing renewal after a year. At that point, it being a contract renewal, I should surely have the right to simply NOT renew. I shouldn't have to give three months notice that I do not wish to RENEW something which is an agreement. Nor should they be able to bill me for their renewing the agreement without my actually acquiescing - their saying it is a mandatory renewal is a tad arbitrary. Continuing with the bill and adding on costs for a renewal of an agreement that does not (in their view) need my agreement also seems at odds with the Distance Selling regs. Any thoughts based on the clause above?

Thanks much