Hi Everyone Desperately looking for advice and help. My wife and I have a joint Lloyds current account held for 15+ years (I have been a customer for 50 years but that makes no odds). Due to personal circumstances of having a disability I am now in a position of not being able to work. This account has an overdraft limit of £3500 but currently it is £3509.35 O/D. So not much over its actual limit. For clarity we were sensible enough to have a "parachute account" though this is with Halifax, but I believe it to be ringfenced? The Lloyds one is "inactive" and the only movement on it will be Lloyds own charges. We were making ends meet reasonably well and very gradually paying this off, until Lloyds TSB changed their charging regime a year ago. This has nearly tripled our charges from the original charging regime. After the second stage implimentation where the charges went from 1p for every £14 OD to 1p for every £7 OD we have not been able to cope and it is those charges that effectively stopped us being able to get on top of this account, and indeed, pushed it into the £9.35 over the OD limit. When we got the initial letter informing us of the changes in charging (from £14 to £7) I immediately wrote to them informing them that we did not accept their terms and conditions, and what as the way forward in these circumstances? The letter never garnered a reply, and lately, Lloyds have denied ever receiving it. I then complained, after receiving standard threatening letters. I have since spoken to varying departments of differing names, each giving me slightly different stories. I was sent an IE form, but this did not appear to be their standard one, nor from the correct department. All the time my simple question was asking them to outline any ways forward, the consequence of each of those ways, and the costs involved. To me these seemed very simple and sensible questions, as I wanted to know how this would affect my wife and I in terms of credit score (not that I particularly care, since we lost our house to Halifax when I first became ill). I also kept asking them to explain how they were fulfilling their obligations under BCOBS with regard to our case. These requests were out rightly ignored. Lloyds continually refused our direct requests for help and information. Both by letter and phonecall. They seem reluctant to put anything in writing, preferring to talk on the phone. I did start to record these conversations. Eventually, after 6 long months of prevaricating, a Complaints Manager wrote to us, outlining three differing ways forward, however, one involed paying the whole lot in one go, getting a hugely expensive loan, or that they would simply default it, add it to our credit record and probably sell the debt. All these options (bar paying outright) seem to require an IE form. A blank proforma was sent by them and was wholly different to the original one I received (I hasten to add neither have been filled in as yet - as I wanted answers to the BCOBS questions - they had again ignored the question of BCOBS) I was then rung up and told that this account was being moved to some team I had never heard of because it was clear from "our IE form" that we could not afford any payments. This is EXTREMELY interesting as we had never sent one in. On ringing they were pretty adamant one existed and had referred to it on several calls. Not sure, but I consider this to be fraudulent misrepresentation of our IE? Of course no-one could find the "original" (it doesn't exist of course) and a further complaint made. They eventually admitted that there was some sort of error and decided that someone had erred in simply recording that one had been received when it hadn't and it was simple human error. For that they sent a cheque of £100 (doesn't cut it for me frankly). That they kept referring to it suggests to me one was actually there, whether that be someone else's by accident, or one had simply been made up - I suspect the latter as a couple of times it was admitted to me that figures were inputted based on a single, throwaway conversational sentence I had said to someone on an earlier phone call about us having difficulties. This IS NOT, and surely cannot, be termed an IE form? I complained again saying I was unsatisfied with their response, and why they were at it please could they answer the BCOBS question. It inevitably went quiet, until I had a phone call from another team asking me how I wanted to pay. Naturally I hit the roof, (but in a polite and controlled manner - no swearing etc) and bounced it straight back to the caller, who probably wished she hadn't rang. After an hour and a half talking to me (I sure will waste their time) she agreed the responses were not "ideal" and promised to take ownership of the issue, and find out why my complaint hadn't been answered. The account was put on hold for a further 30 days. Of course I heard nothing, until the 30 days were up when I got another demand. A phone call in resulted in the operator again mentioning the IE form (which doesn't exist -and notably, she referred to it first, not me, so despite the admission it is all an error, the error still exists in their records). Of course I complained and was passed to a complaints manager. The Complaints Manager identified that the lady I had spoken to about a month before had passed my complaint to a complaints manager called Shelley. However, she admitted Shelley had done nothing about it and promised to chase it. I asked her to get Shelley to answer the BCOBS question, explain why she hadn't bothered to answer the complaint the firsts time, and I wanted to know the history of the "ghostly" IE form, as I suspected their contention that it was simply a tick box error was not correct. Amazingly I did finally get a reply from Shelley. She ignored the reason she had not replied in the first place, told me the issues surrounding the IE form had been resolved and explained (they haven't), and that when the Bank put their charging structure to the FCA it was approved and therefore met BCOBS. She suggested I take the issue up with the Ombudsman - but had to within six months of their "final response" which she contested was much earlier. She didn't mention what letter that is, nor can I find one with the words "final response" on. Further, surely her letter, by being the last, is the final response? Clearly this is an unsatisfactory reply. I am unsure what to do next? This issue is causing my wife and I huge amounts of stress and time, and coming on top of losing your house to the same banking group (though the judge found they had overcharged our mortgage by nearly £10k, not followed proper procedure etc and were severely criticized by him) it is not great. The simple facts of the matter are that I don't feel they have acted in anyway professionally on these complaints, or in any way tried to strike up a sensible, proactive and constructive dialogue with us. Furthermore, they have acted at best unprofessionally, at worse, perhaps committed fraud (or is that a bit strong?) by acting upon an IE form that either didn't exist, or worse, was simply made up. I feel our relationship is wholly broken down and I cannot trust them one iota. It is apparent to me that they will twist, or lie, simply to cover themselves, and conversations are not recorded accurately on their written notational system. For instance on their system they have recorded that I simply refuse to fill out an IE form. First of all I don't think I am under any obligation to do so, and secondly I have never refused, just asked them to outline the options for us first, and explain how they meet their obligations under BCOBS and then I would do it. My other big problem is no single point of contact, various departments that make no sense to me, all seemingly overlapping, but none willing to take ownership, and all blaming each other, or not knowing what has been said. My big questions are: 1) I am unclear of how our account not stands, they haven't said, nor have they said what department it is in, nor what will happen next. 2) how do I get a single, sensible, point of contact with them? 3) I could just pay the £9.35, that wouldn't be an issue, but then next month I guess they would hammer us with a £90 charge, so how does that work? Would we then be £90 over our OD limit? Surely this is what BCOBS aims to stop? I can see that this would just spiral uncontrollably, and it is why I have been trying to keep the account frozen. 4) I could just let them have a default, doesn't really affect us as far as I can tell with credit rating, as ours is poor anyway and we don't apply for credit. However I worry slightly about the debt being sold, but as I understand it if there is a dispute about the amount (there is) then there is little a Debt Recovery agency can do? 5) I have offered to pay £10 or £20 per month, provided there are no charges or interest added to the account. They have refused citing both that our IE form shows we cannot pay it (!!!) or that we haven't given them an IE form. They have also indicated that this sort of amount wouldn't be acceptable to them anyway. 6) We have suggested the charging regime is put back to 1p in every £14 - at least we were slowly managing that. However they have point blank refused; Given their history of messing this issue up and being so unprofessional, that they call it quits and simply write off the £3509.35. They have refused to even entertain either of these. 7) I can go to the Financial Ombudsman, but I see that it has little teeth, and the banks seem to ignore it anyway? 8) Do I have a claim under BCOBS? it is clear with our credit rating we can not go to another organisation for a loan, or account, so Lloyds have effectively "trapped" us into paying extortionately high charges, or otherwise accept their terms, which they are unwilling to discuss or help with. 9) If there is a claim there, how do I go about it? 10) what should I do next re with contact to the bank, given they last sent me a brush off letter? Really sorry for the extremely long post - probably too much info?

Excellent - Thanks Dpick - I will just check the stuff they sent before I make an idiot of my self. I have just noticed that on the back of the tear off (photocopied) that there are sections 1 and 2 of the T&C then there are a further 4 sides of printed A4 purpurting to be the continuation of this tear off. It says at the top "Please Refer to your Credit Agreement for Conditions 1 &2". This is a print out and not a photocopy - at the bottom it has MB 01/02. I am worrying now that this has all the required info. The reverse of the tear off has interest rate for retail at 15.9APR but not anything for actual % rate. Also the table states that it is basically an illustration and the actual rate depends on credit limit but does not tell me what my specific interest rate or credit limit is - though all the listed ones for retail transactions are 15.9%APR. The T&C states how you should pay monthly payments and what the minimum is is % terms etc. I am now worrying that this is in compliance of the Sect 78 bit? However the tick in the box is not mine - and I have no proof that at the T&C's come from 2002. Further, originally I thought this was a Beneficial Bank Card - but there is no mention of this name anywhere in the forms or T&C's......?? Would it be better to post it up so people can see - just to make sure.

Thanks Miss M, Strangely I have just found the Harrassment letter and will send it to them now. I will look at the legal successes area. The only thing I am a little stuck on is what to do re the Sect 78. Someone suggested the A/c in Dispute letter, and I assume this is the response for the failure to prvide me with a CCA. My problem is I cannot find the A/c in dispute template in the library...any pointers? Cheers

Thanks also Wycombe - next time they phone I will simply request that they put it in writing and hang up. I will also email them with this request and write to them. Thus far I have not kept default letter envelopes but will from now on. As I say they do change what they say on the phone - sometimes in sentence. In my SAR request I will demand any recordings that exist. I am very familiar with the Data Protection Act and will do a SAR request. I successfully got a big insurer in big trouble over the same issue. Should I issue the SAR to MBNAor should I go through Optima, since they have stated in their letter that they have been "instructed" (which technically they haven't) but it would be reasonable for me to deal with them rahter than MBNA, or will this add layer for them to get out of the request? Cheers CCat

DX Thank you so much for replying so quickly - you wouldn't believe what a relief it is to talk to somebody understanding. Actually I quite like talking to them on the phone - simply becuase I exasperate them and I am happy to stay talking for a couple of hours at time going in circles - it wastes their time LOL However the advice you have given will be taken. I will stay off the phone. The only thing is they have asked for a financial hardship statement - they claim tha this gives them the ability to freeze interest and charges and try and settle the account somehow. I sort of assume this is a reasonable request from them and perhaps we'd better at least do that - or are they just fishing for financial info? The tear off slip is the bottom third of an A4 sheet printed both sides - it was immediately under a balance transfer request and looks as if it was the original app form to me. Sorry to be thick - what is "A/C"? Also is there a template of such a letter and where would I find it? (Sorry new to forum, and new to forums in general)

Hi Everyone I have an MBNA Credit Card taken out in 2002. Due to circumstances - my wife and I have run up a debt of £17,000+. We now are in a position of being unable to pay. The thing is this has happened becuase everytime we neared the limit - MBNA simply increased it with no investigations into our circumstances or reference to us. Now we have started to default the charges and interest are racking up. I have come across the Sect 78 business. I do not understand it totally - but I am aware you can make the debt unenforcable but not "right it off". Using the letter on this site I made a Section 78 request. This elicited a response about 4 days after they received the letter. They rang, and first of all denied having the letter, until I told them I had the recorded delivery sig, then they spent the next hour trying every trick in the book. They told me they had never lost a Sect 78 case (is this true - probably not?) that my card was legit - that they would comply with the sect 78, that a court had deemed that they had a month to do so and not twelve days (as the law says I believe), that then turned into six weeks in the conversation then back to 21 days! When I go on the attack - with things like this I am accused of being rude! They tried co-ercing me into paying, then bullying by threatening my house (but a second charge cannot force you to sell as I understand?), then using tactics to assualt my "guilt" - like "Do you think it is fair that you spent 17k of our money but refuse to pay it back". I simply replied that banks are greedy and the real debt minus charges and interest was probably about 5k. The other issue is that they have threatened me with both UK and USA Law stating that they are an American Bank! I continually try to get them to confirm this in writing but they won't, nor will they supply me with recordings or transcripts of calls. I see a Subject Access request coming here. I did make an offer of 10% to settle the debt, they turned it down by telephone but refuse to do so in writing, and refuse to come back wiht a coutner offer as asked. The upshot is I received a response to the Sect 78. It is a photocopy of my original tear off slip from the bottom of the app form (I think). It has my sig but no box for theirs - however across the small writing is a signature from them with a date stamp. My suspicion is this has been added recently. There are two tick boxes for PPI, there is a tick in the "not wanted" but it is not mine, as I use left handed ticks and this is right handed. However I have not paid PPI. There is also a photocopy of the back of the tear off slip which seems to be some sort of rudimentary but not full T&C with an interest rate table. The interest rate here is considerably lower than the present one. There is also a copy of the current 2010 conditions, but not as far as I can tell the 2002 ones. I ahve now had a letter from Optima Legal, stating that they have been "instructed" by MBNA but encouraging me to contact MBNA. I rang the number given for Optima but the phone line was on a loop stating the lines are busy. By using my wife's contacts (she is a legal sec) we got a number and got hold of them. At first they denied they had been intructed but simply had been asked to send the letters. I said that "instruction" means something specific and that now I would only deal with them as this would be reasonable. They did not like that, and I asked that their client sent all their requests etc via Optima so lines did not get crossed. In the end, the guy sort of admitted that the letter was confusing and offered to do just that. I am guessing the instruction doesn't exist in law terms (Optima do not have a file on me) and that this is simply scare tactics? If so it has backfired a bit. If MBNA wanted to say that they were thinking of putting the file across to OPtima, then they should have written to me, not Optima stating that they had been instructed when they hadn't. I continue to get letters from MBNA, one saying they are dealing with my complaint (I whinged about Aegis being useless) and I assume they are dealing with UK and USA law question. I also keep receiving various notices by post email and telephone. I keep asking them to send it via Optima since they are "instructed". Yesterday I spent an hour on the telephone with a lady at MBNA who again claimed they had never lost a case, was unclear about the UK USA thing, accused me of being rude everytime I attacked them, would not answer my questions, and when she made comments refused to put them in writing (until the end - but we'll see what transpires) stating that they are a "Telephone Bank" - pah! When I suggested that if they were to take Legal Action they needed a paper trail she dismissed this. My point is I won't be bullied on the phone, and it seems that I am unusual in that respect, as soon as I attack and catch them out (lots of times) I am accused of being rude or wasting time thier time - charming. Sorry about the long post but I need some help with what to do next. I cannot afford the upfront fees for someone to look at what MBNA claim is compliance with the Sect 78 request, nor do I understand this myself. Can someone take a quick look, and am I even in the correct section of the forum? Please, what should I do next? Cheers Chirpy

I know my rights as well - please advise and refer your employers to the relevant law.