Ramjet v NatWest \Shoosmiths Court action

[ramjet]

Help

Hi there,new to this and about time I got my head out the sand.Quick summary lost job end of March always struggled to pay debts off but coped ok.Used to earn good money 60k ish and life style to suit and yes every month money was all gone.I have fallen behind with debts and after a short period of umemployment started part time work in September not much money but some.I used some redunancy money to retrain and do a 8 week intensive electrical course.Registered as a self employed sparky now to help with income.We are up to date with morgage no arrears at all and council tax.Have paid off 2 credit card almost 11k and now no money left ,its all gone.

I have a large debt owing to Natwest bank and a loan (18k) and now they are doing a CCJ end of November.I have proposed that I do £40.00 a month initially to Shoosmiths ,at least pay something and the latter payments be increased to make up for the initial low start,they are not interested and now they say they want a lump sum suddingley.I am maxed out on overdraft £3.5k.My next move is to do a revised budgets and send to the courts,I admit to whats owed but the solicitors changing tactics now and asking for a lump sum is a bit strange,or is it ?.A earlier telephone conversation with them they said I could do installments over 5 years.Other debts owed with other lenders have accepted token payments and frozen interest.One lender took payment of £3.3k against a debt of £4.4k so it was worth paying off.It was so easy to get credit and amounts on cards kept growing with no ceiling being applied and ever increasing credit limits to match increased spending.I know I have been stupid but while debts were managed it was sort of ok but now the brown stuff is really flying and I am finding it difficult to think about anything else,family and friends are suffering.Natwest offered loans very easily,no budget plans presurised sales at branch level.It was all to easy .The recommended increasing my mortgage at one point by some 40k to cover my debts.CCCS advised no.

Could someone please advise the best way to handle this.I will acknowledge the letter from court but the total claim must have loads of charges in it should i dispute the amount ? could someone give me simple to understand route to take to resolve this complicated issue.

Help:confused:

[ramjet]

Hi all,

Some great advise although head still spinning and figuring out what to do.

Did this post earlier today however i guess it is more suitable being applied to this one.So it is below.

Help

Hi there,new to this and about time I got my head out the sand.Quick summary lost job end of March always struggled to pay debts off but coped ok.Used to earn good money 60k ish and life style to suit and yes every month money was all gone.I have fallen behind with debts and after a short period of umemployment started part time work in September not much money but some.I used some redunancy money to retrain and do a 8 week intensive electrical course.Registered as a self employed sparky now to help with income.We are up to date with morgage no arrears at all and council tax.Have paid off 2 credit card almost 11k and now no money left ,its all gone.

I have a large debt owing to NatWest bank and a loan (18k) and now they are doing a CCJ end of November.I have proposed that I do £40.00 a month initially to Shoosmiths ,at least pay something and the latter payments be increased to make up for the initial low start,they are not interested and now they say they want a lump sum suddingley.I am maxed out on overdraft £3.5k.My next move is to do a revised budgets and send to the courts,I admit to whats owed but the solicitors changing tactics now and asking for a lump sum is a bit strange,or is it ?.A earlier telephone conversation with them they said I could do installments over 5 years.Other debts owed with other lenders have accepted token payments and frozen interest.One lender took payment of £3.3k against a debt of £4.4k so it was worth paying off.It was so easy to get credit and amounts on cards kept growing with no ceiling being applied and ever increasing credit limits to match increased spending.I know I have been stupid but while debts were managed it was sort of ok but now the brown stuff is really flying and I am finding it difficult to think about anything else,family and friends are suffering.NatWest offered loans very easily,no budget plans presurised sales at branch level.It was all to easy .The recommended increasing my mortgage at one point by some 40k to cover my debts.CCCS advised no.

Could someone please advise the best way to handle this.I will acknowledge the letter from court but the total claim must have loads of charges in it should i dispute the amount ? could someone give me simple to understand route to take to resolve this complicated issue.

Help:confused:

Edited November 18, 2009 by ramjet
typo

[supasnooper]

Ramjet - I have taken the liberty of creating a new thread for your problem here- http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/233221-ramjet-natwest-shoosmiths-court.html

 

Please do not hijack other peoples threads as the advice given will become confusing.

[supasnooper]

Ramjet - I have taken the liberty of creating this new thread for your problem here.

 

Please keep all your questions relating to your problem on this thread as hijacking other members threads as the advice given will become confusing.

 

[supasnooper]

Oh, and welcome to CAG

[Docman]

Hi ramjet and welcome to CAG,

 

You say Natwest are 'doing a CCJ at the end of November' and that you 'will acknowledge the letter from court'. What stage is the claim at? Have you just received a claim form [N1] from the court which requires you to acknowlege by the end of the month or has the claim progressed to the point where there is a hearing scheduled this month?

[ramjet]

Hi ramjet and welcome to CAG,

 

You say Natwest are 'doing a CCJ at the end of November' and that you 'will acknowledge the letter from court'. What stage is the claim at? Have you just received a claim form [N1] from the court which requires you to acknowlege by the end of the month or has the claim progressed to the point where there is a hearing scheduled this month?

 

Hello,

Received a claim form 11/11/09 from County Court Bulk center,Northampton N1CPC.Thats all so far.Shoosmiths are phoning me as i have emailed the office direct to seek guidance from them,probably wrong thing to do.I have now decided to figure out in depth what I can do and hence using this forum.I understand it is important to acknowledge form and do within timescale so I can prepare a defence.The money is owed so I can not really dispute it although interest keeps adding up and now court costs and solicitors fees.

The best place to start would be ?

[ramjet]

Ramjet - I have taken the liberty of creating this new thread for your problem here.

 

Please keep all your questions relating to your problem on this thread as hijacking other members threads as the advice given will become confusing.

 

Good idea,apologies if one has started incorrectly struggling to think straight and logically at the moment

[Docman]

Ok ramjet, thanks for the information.

 

As you have shown in your first post, you have tried to be reasonable with your creditors and most appear to have responded positively allowing you to discharge your obligations. If a creditor decides it does not wish to be reasonable but turns to legal action through the courts, then IMO the creditor must abide by both the law and the rules of the court.

 

I suggest that your first action should be to acknowledge receipt of the claim form. You can do this electronically up to 14 days after service of the form (deemed to be 2 days after issue). So you have until 27 November by my reckoning. You then have 14 further days to file a defence with the court. Again, this can be filed electronically but the defence is limited to 8000 characters.

 

In order to draft your defence, you need to see the documents proving the bank's claim. These should have been with the claim form but there is an exception with elctronic claims through Northampton that means the documents do not need to be sent with the claim. Therefore, you have to write to Shoosmiths asking for them and quoting the court's rules. You will reference in other threads to these rules as Civil Procedure Rules [or CPR]. All the rules are available on the Ministry of Justice website at http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/index.htm. You need to look up and quote CPR 31.14. There are template letters available on other threads where this letter is known as a CPR31.14 letter.

 

If you receive a response with the documents, then you will need to draft a defence. Help will come from other Caggers if you ask. However, it is likely that you will not get a response at all and will then have to file what is known as an 'embrassed defence' because in the preamble you state to the court, that you are embrassed at having to defend a claim without any documents.

 

Once your defence is filed, the court will send a copy to Shoosmiths. If they wish to proceed, they have to inform the court in Northampton. The case will then be transferred to your local county court automatically. Both you and Shoosmiths will then be sent Allocation Questionnaires or AQs for return to your local county court. At this point, Shoosmiths have to pay a fee (I think £300). The case may then go for a full trial with exchange of witness statements and exhibits. Sometimes, firms like Shoosmiths go for 'Summary judgment' ie a quick hearing supposedly to save costs on the grounds that you have no defence to their claim. That may be true, but often, solicitors try to rush a summary judgment past a judge who may not be familiar with consumer credit law and/or wants to clear his overburdened in tray.

 

Let's see what happens later.

[ramjet]

Blimey within a couple of hours I have a plan of attack,well sort of.

Thank you.

Got any quick links to a draft for the letter quoting CPR31.14.

Thanks again

[ramjet]

I have found some draft letters within this forum.What is the difference in quoting the CPR18 and the CPR31.14 or CPR31.16.Could someone please explain.

 

They all seem to be asking for the same thing and

[ramjet]

Disapointed no posts ,seems to be the way after the initial encouragement it tails off.

For info CPR 18 request went today special delivery £4.95,drafting CPR 31.16 now.

[hungrybear]

Disapointed no posts ,seems to be the way after the initial encouragement it tails off.

For info CPR 18 request went today special delivery £4.95,drafting CPR 31.16 now.

 

 

just because we aint posting dont mean we aint reading it.

 

You've been given excellent advice and I have nothing to add and there are no doubt several other people 'keeping an eye on you' too.

 

Until you have the CCA / DN and termination from them there really is little to add. You are doing all the right things. I know it's frustrating but it takes time

[Docman]

Ramje

 

As Hungrybear says, it takes time now.

 

The difference between the various request letters depends on the stage of the proceedings. CPR 18 is a general request but can't be used once the case is allocated to a small claim track. CPR 31.14 is to request copies of documents that are mentioned in the claim form, such as the CCA. CPR 31.16 is a request for information before a case starts.

If you are seeking a copy of the agreement and the Default Notice, I suggest using CPR 31.14 at this stage.

Doc

[supasnooper]

Disapointed no posts ,seems to be the way after the initial encouragement it tails off.

For info CPR 18 request went today special delivery £4.95,drafting CPR 31.16 now.

 

CAG is set up as a self-help website where you'll find all the necessary info.........sometimes it just requires a little user application

 

It's good to read that you've been pro-active by getting your requests off.

 

Have a search for threads featuring NatWest\Shoosmiths to read of how they operate and the tactics they use so.

 

Keep the thread updated and I'm sure other members will chip in advice as the thread develops.

[ramjet]

Ok more patience required,take a chill pill.

 

Received letter today its says the following: -

 

I acknowledge receipt of your defence.A copy is being served on the claimant(or the claimants solicitor).The claimant might contact you direct to attempt to resolve any dispute.If the dispute cannot be resolved informally,the claimant will inform the court that he wishes to proceed.The court will then inform you of what will happen.

 

Where he wishes to proceed ,the claimant must contact the court within 28 days after receiving a copy of your defence.After that period has elasped,the claim will be stayed.The only action the claimant can then take will be to apply to a judge for an order lifting the stay.

 

 

Sending CPR31.14 early next week.

 

Going on the right track ? a quick response from the courts.

Edited November 28, 2009 by ramjet

[hungrybear]

Ok more patience required,take a chill pill.

 

Received letter today its says the following: -

 

I acknowledge receipt of your defence.A copy is being served on the claimant(or the claimants solicitor).The claimant might contact you direct to attempt to resolve any dispute.If the dispute cannot be resolved informally,the claimant will inform the court that he wishes to proceed.The court will then inform you of what will happen.

 

Where he wishes to proceed ,the claimant must contact the court within 28 days after receiving a copy of your defence.After that period has elasped,the claim will be stayed.The only action the claimant can then take will be to apply to a judge for an order lifting the stay.

 

 

Sending CPR31.14 early next week.

 

Going on the right track ? a quick response from the courts.

 

 

If you want papers/documents that are not specifically mentioned in the POC the you will need to do a CPR 18 as well, here's a template to modify:

 

In the XXXX County Court

Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)

Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)

 

 

Dear XXX

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION CPR 18

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.(AMEND TO THE COMPANY NAME)

c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

d.Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX (type, don't sign).

 

Send by Recorded Delivery.

[ramjet]

Hot off the press,received this today.

 

Letter to me

 

We enclose for your records a copy of our letter that has today been filed with the court.

 

Then this was sent to Northampton

 

We write with reference to the above and acknowledge receipt of a defence from the defendant,copy enclosed.

Please be advised that the claimant intends to continue with the claim and in the circumstances we would be obliged if the case could be transferred out of County Court Bulk centre to the defendants local County Court to continue.

 

The defendants local county court is Staines County Court number 334

 

So Natwest are still after me ,no response to any CPR requests from Shoosmiths to date.

 

It is planning out as advised so far

 

The next step would be ????

[supasnooper]

It looks like a normal progression of a case so far.

 

Northampton CCBC are on the ball advising both parties if the case proceeds as to which court the hearing shall be held.

 

Typical solicitor behaviour in not supplying the docs you need.

 

I'd advise that you do a search on the forum for threads featuring Shoosmiths; as it always good to know how the opposition operates.

[ramjet]

Latest news

 

Received today Allocation questionnaire(small claims track)

 

I will search forum for guidance as initially its looks straight forward however it asks for witnesses and experts statements ? Any advice welcome.

What happens next ?

 

No reply to CPR18 yet deadline has passed.

 

I intend to pay Shoosmiths another £40.00 against the debt as its all i can afford.

 

Have to fill form by 04/01/2010 not much time really considering Christmas.Ho bloody ho.

[ramjet]

Latest news

 

Received today Allocation questionnaire(small claims track)

 

I will search forum for guidance as initially its looks straight forward however it asks for witnesses and experts statements ? Any advice welcome.

What happens next ?

 

No reply to CPR18 yet deadline has passed.

 

I intend to pay Shoosmiths another £40.00 against the debt as its all i can afford.

 

Have to fill form by 04/01/2010 not much time really considering Christmas.Ho bloody ho.

 

Should I mention on the AQ about no reply from CPR18 request ? and deadline is soon to expire on CPR31.14 request ?

Any top tips on filling in the AQ

What happens as soon as I have sent the AQ in ? timescale ? will I have to attend court ?

Questions ,questions and more questions.

[supasnooper]

I'd have a serious think about how much you wish to pay Shoosmiths.

If you can't afford £40.00 then just pay them what you can afford, even if it is reduced to a £1.00 payment. Do not put yourself into prioritising this debt as a "must pay"....it is not.

 

If Shoosmiths had any respect for you, they would have responded to your letters and CPR requests..........they haven't replied.

 

Have a look at these threads on AQ's -

 

Useful threads when caggers need help filling out Allocation Questionnaires.

 

Link Financial County Court Summons - N150

 

Directions for N150 or N149 Allocation questionnaire - Paul's guide to N149 & N150 AQ's

 

Allocation Questionnaire...Urgent help needed please!!! - N150

 

Court papers received- what now??!!**WON**CASE DISMISSED - N149 (with draft order for directions)

 

upto the eyeballs v CL Finance No CCA IN COURT ** Help ** - N150

 

The dreaded court claim came today... - N150

[ramjet]

Happy new year to you all.

 

The story continues :-

Doing my N149 form now(sorry thought had N150) and will probably deliver it to the court as i might miss the date by a day.Although just noticed it is to be returned by 04/01/2009 so it is valid as date is wrong ?????

I have received this in the meantime a letter from Shoosmiths.

They have acknowledged receipt of my CPR31.14 request stating it was received on the 22/12/09.

They can not reply within 7 days due to the nature of their clients business but have said they would by the 22/01/10,one whole month.

This is after my N149 deadline so i guess i should state that ?.

The never replied to my CPR 18 request.

 

Whats the difference between N149 and N150 the N149 says small claims track

 

Anyway will gather what I can and fill it in,fingers crossed.

[ramjet]

After reading some posts they state allocate it to small claims track as its straightforward and easily resolved on the production of said documents.I have copied and pasted below which looks like something i should state however i am already at the small claims track,so i will just edit ?

 

Also I do a draft order and just add that in the other information section and copies of my CPR requests as well ?

 

And waht about fees ?

 

Had one thought in between the panic now setting in.It has already been allocated to the small claims track so how much are they after.The debt is about 19k.

 

Any got a direct link to how a N149 should be filled in word for word as it seems easy to get it wrong.I can spend hours searching the posts.

 

I am begining to tire

 

 

XXXXXXXXXX -v- XXXXXXX

Claim No: xxxxxxxxx

 

 

 

 

N149 / 150 **Allocation Questionnaire

 

 

 

 

 

Section G / H **- other information

 

If the court is in agreement, the defendant respectfully requests that special directions may be given as per the attached draft order.

 

The defendant proposes these directions in mind of the Overriding Objectives, and in particular the duty of the parties to help the court further them. The issues outlined below are the crux upon which this claim rests, and the proposed directions identify these issues and will allow them to be assessed in advance of the hearing so that this claim may proceed justly and expeditiously;

 

without production of the requested documents, I am at a disadvantage and am unable to serve a proper defence. Failure of the claimant to supply the requested documentation will make the case much harder for the court to deal with as without production of the requested documentation will inhibit the courts ability to deal with the case

 

The House of Lords in the case of Wilson v First County Trust Ltd - [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) made it clear in paragraph 29 of LORD NICHOLLS OF BIRKENHEAD judgment

 

29. The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order. The second type of case concerns failure to comply with the duty to supply a copy of an executed or unexecuted agreement pursuant to sections 62 and 63, or failure to comply with the duty to give

notice of cancellation rights in accordance with section 64(1). Here again, subject to one exception regarding sections 62 and63, section 127(4) precludes the court from making an enforcement order.

 

Its is respectfully requested this case be allocated to the small claims track, it is a straight forward case and is easily resolved on production of the required documentation by the claimant, should the claimant not have the documentation required to progress this case I suggest that there will be no case to answer

 

Therefore it stands to reason that this document must be disclosed before this case can progress any further

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2010 by ramjet
had not realised documents had been attached twice

[ramjet]

Update if anyone reading !!!!!

 

N149 hand delivered to court on Sunday evening so have hit deadline by a day.

What happens now ?

 

Should I phone the court to see whether shoosmiths have returned thiers on time ?

 

Had another thought my CPR31.14 was received by shoosmiths the same day as I received the N149 will that be a problem ?

 

Should I ask for shoosmiths to produce the documents earlier or wait for the court decision as my draft order stipulates documentation to be produced within 14 days ? also remind them no reply to CPR 18 ?

 

lots of questions