Halifax CCA...

[Gingerbread]

Hi Guys,

 

Finally, received CCA from Halifax!

 

My scanner has gone down so I'm unable to copy it. However, after searching around I've managed to find one just like mine but belonging to another cagger, namely darknight. I've pm'd said cagger to ask permission for linking but not had a reply. So I'll post for now but remove straight away if they object.

 

My copy is not anywhere near as legible as darknights, it also has very wide dark borders containg numbers across the top and bottom indicating microfiche copy? They have sent only current T&C's yet the form refers to the T&C's overleaf.

 

I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this please!

 

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq126/darknight_man/Halifax%20CCA/scan0001.jpg

 

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq126/darknight_man/Halifax%20CCA/scan0002.jpg

 

This is the link to darknights thread....

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/175319-cca-halifax-valid.html

 

Thank you very much.

[Gingerbread]

Bump

[the_shadow]

Just my opinion but I'd say enforceable if signed by both yourself and the bank, only query I'd have is you've signed one page... them the next... but as its clearly all in one document:-

 

The prescribed terms are there in the left bottom half section, namely mention of credit limit, interest rates and repayment terms.

 

S.

[Gingerbread]

Thank you very much shadow for taking the time to look in and give your opinion.

 

I also thought enforceable but then found the thread by darknight http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/175319-cca-halifax-valid.html where it is suggested that the interest rate is misstated.

 

Unfortunately I am not qualified to say if this is true or not. I am currently trying to learn how to work this out though! I also do not know how much weight it may hold if true.

 

I am in the meantime going to request a better copy of the CCA as mine is very poor and of course a copy of the back of the agreement, the T&C's.

 

Thanks again in advance to anyone who can offer any more opinions or advice regarding this.

[the_shadow]

Thank you very much shadow for taking the time to look in and give your opinion.

 

I also thought enforceable but then found the thread by darknight http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/175319-cca-halifax-valid.html where it is suggested that the interest rate is misstated.

 

Unfortunately I am not qualified to say if this is true or not. I am currently trying to learn how to work this out though! I also do not know how much weight it may hold if true.

 

I am in the meantime going to request a better copy of the CCA as mine is very poor and of course a copy of the back of the agreement, the T&C's.

 

Thanks again in advance to anyone who can offer any more opinions or advice regarding this.

 

I read at point 5 of the scan...

 

"Interest will be charged at a daily basis at the rate of 1.95% per month"

 

This I took as confirming the interest rate, APR is not a prescribed term, its an industry created number to help people "understand" interest rates.

 

Have a read of this thread which should help...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful.html

 

S.

[Gingerbread]

Thanks once again shadow!

 

I think what they are saying on the aforementioned thread is that the figures do not add up

[the_shadow]

Thanks once again shadow!

 

I think what they are saying on the aforementioned thread is that the figures do not add up

 

Ah right ok, there is a + and - amount which believe it or not is set in stone in the regulations on how much they can be out by. I'm afraid maths was never my forte at school so I'll leave that to others.

 

You might want to post a link or the agreement on this link asking someone to check over the APR/Interest rate calculations then.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful.html

 

S.

[Gingerbread]

Will do shadow, thanks again!

[diddydicky]

well it is not properly exected for starters

 

has to be headed

 

credit CARD agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974

 

there could also be an argument to say that if the initial credit limit is not one of the amounts shown as examples then you would not have known what the interest rate was!

[Gingerbread]

Diddydicky, thank you for taking a look and giving your opinion on it. Just wish I could get some more clarification on the interst rate / APR issue.

[diddydicky]

yes sorry about that im not ye too afay with working out the interests but i beleive there are calculators around if you search for them on here or google "interest calculators"

[lilly white]

for debate

 

[10. Agreements for--

(a) running-account credit; and

(b) fixed-sum credit falling within the exceptions in

paragraph 9(a) to ©.

(1) The total charge for credit with a list of its

constituent parts and in the case of running-ac-

count credit, the total charge for credit shall be

calculated on the same assumptions as are set out

in paragraph 1 of Schedule 7 for the purpose of

calculating the APR in place of the assumptions

in Part 4 of the Total Charge for Credit Regula-

tions that might otherwise apply.

(2) The rate of interest on the credit to be

provided under the agreement or, where more

than one such rate applies, all the rates in all

cases quoted on a per annum basis with details of

when each rate applies.

(3) A statement whether any interest rate to be

shown under (2) above is fixed or variable.

(4) A statement explaining how and when in-

 

terest charges are calcthe agreement.]

Page 17

 

THE AGREEDMENT MUST SHOW HOW THEY HAVE CAL THE APR OR A STATMENT FIXED OR VARIABLE

 

WILL BE INTERESTED IN COMMENTS

[diddydicky]

if you can find threads where people seem knowledgable on the interest rates bit you could try pm them

 

search under interest rates etc

[Gingerbread]

Thanks again didydicky, I have already asked a very knowledgeable poster on another thread so I'm hoping they might help.

[diddydicky]

Thanks again didydicky, I have already asked a very knowledgeable poster on another thread so I'm hoping they might help.

 

who is it (i might need them)

[Gingerbread]

It's a poster named pelham. They have been advising Shelbelle on the issue.

[diddydicky]

It's a poster named pelham. They have been advising Shelbelle on the issue.

 

thanks

[pelham9]

I'm here. How can I help

[pelham9]

i beleive there are calculators around if you search for them on here or google "interest calculators"

 

I would warn you against using these calculators unless the authors publish the formulas they are using and you can confirm that the formulas are correct and that you do indeed get correct answers. I have only seen one site that published a formula and it was incorrect! Far better to master the O level maths required and perhaps some simple programming and do the sums yourself.

 

Many calculator authors clearly do not understand the term APR and invite you to enter its value to calculate monthly rates, monthly payments etc. If you do this you will get an inacccurate (at its worst wildly so) answer simply because the %APR is not the annual rate that banks charge.

 

It would be very easy for banks to supply calculators into which you are invited to put the APR and which would then give the answers that the banks want. A possibility? I am not a maths or IT graduate but I could do it in under a day.

 

One example.

 

A bank quotes in an agreement 15.9% APR. Monthly rate 1.24%. Is the APR correct? Yes it is!

 

Working from the montthly rate applied the annual rate applied is

 

((1+1.24/100)^(12) -1)*100 = 15.938% (to three decimal places the accuracy required)

 

So the APR is 15.9% but they are charging 15.938%.You will say (as they do) that the difference is minimal. To be sure it is for small loans over short periods but try the effect on a loan of £10000 over ten years. They will also say that their figures are right because the are charging an APR of 15.9%. So they are but by a sleight of hand they get 15.938%. Clever b****rs.

[pelham9]

This I took as confirming the interest rate, APR is not a prescribed term, its an industry created number to help people "understand" interest rates.

 

 

 

I understand exactly what uou are saying and yuo are corect except for one little point.

 

The APR is not an industry created number. It is in fact a statute created entitity fully characterised in the CCA (1974) and subsequent regulations. It was indeed meant to allow punters to compare and better understand interest on loans. The precribed term is 'the rate of any interest to be applied' and this can never be the APR which is an approximation and sometimes expresses compulsory fees (as in this case). A monthly rate is capable of satisfying the the prescribed term for interest raates.

 

The banks for their own ends have assiduously propagandised that ' we charge the %APR quoted'. They do not do so but their propaganda has been very successful.

 

What do you think a judge would make of an agreenent that said.

APR 15.9% Monthly rate 1.24% Annual rate 15.9%? Which is the prescibed term and are these interest rates consistent?

[Gingerbread]

Hi pelham,

 

Must have just missed you on Thursday and I couldn't get on yesterday.

 

I would be very grateful if you could check the APR / Interest rate figures on this CCA please.

 

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq126/darknight_man/Halifax%20CCA/scan0001.jpg

 

Thank you very much for looking in.

 

[pelham9]

This agreement is a mess as far as interest is concerned.

 

Under 5)

 

The monthly interest rate is 1.95%. They have therefore shown the prescribed term 'the rate of any interest to be applied' This is an actual annual rate (AAR) of 26.08%. Your agreement is not absolutely unenforceable by statute.

 

Please note that the %APR does not express the annual interest rate alone.

In your case there is an additional fee annually of £10 and for cash advances an additional charge and both these must be shown by a higher %APR.

 

Under 1)

 

You will see the effect of the annual fee of £10 in the first column. Notice that the higher the limit the lower the %APR. This is because the more you borrow the less the £10 fee affects the %APR - there is a dilution effect. As you would expect the cash advance fee increases the %APR. for cash advances

 

This agreement nicely shows that the %APR is NOT the rate of any interest to be applied which is 1.95% monthly (26.08 annually).

 

I have not worked out the exact %APRs for you because the exact vakues do not matter in practice.

 

Under 7)

they say they have not taken account of the account fee and the cash advance handling fee to clculate the %APR. They clearly have done so but this statement is in fact unlawful because they must take them into account.

 

What does this all mean - apart from being a mess. Well it is possible that a judge will rule this agreement unenforceable on interest data groumds but he does not have to do so because they have shown the prescribed term for interest. You would have to show him/her either

 

a) that they have not charged a monthly rate of 1.95% and to do this you would have to check some of the interest amounts charged.

 

b) that they have not shown the items required by Scedule 5 and Schedule 7 of the 1983 Regs of CCA(1974) correctly or at all and that this was prejudicial to you when you signed the agreement.

 

Schedule 1

 

They have not shown the annual rate of interest.

 

They have not shown how interest will be calculated from the annual rate and how it will be applied.

 

They have shown the %APR ( these would have to be checked if you try this route)

 

Scheduke 7

 

The have not given you total cost for cerdit and the method adopted tp calculate this.

 

I do not think you will persuade a judge probably unschooled in the CCA legislation and who has little maths to make ths agreement unenforceable. If you do try I would suggest you consult with someone like Pt 2537 before doing so. There may be other grounds for contesting the ageement.

 

Personally I think that regulators, lawyers and the judiciary have been very slack to have allowd the banks to get away with this for 35 years.

[Gingerbread]

Pelham, thank you ever so much for taking the time to check this for me.

 

R.E: Actual interest applied.

Interestingly, Darknight posted in his thread the historical T&C's that they had sent him. They state this would be charged at a rate of 1.85% per month.

 

I shall perhaps do a SAR which might just throw up some statements from that far back? However, I am currently awaiting a better copy of the CCA and I have also asked for a copy of the 'overleaf' and historical T&C's. I do have other concerns with it and have created another thread asking several questions which would help eliminate or indeed highlight further these 'concerns.' Although, I'm not having much luck with answers.

 

Anyway, thank you again pelham. I really appreciate your help.