Help required with a Capital One Agreement

[colin21958]

Hi,

 

I have a Capital One credit card which was taken out in October 2006. I also have another one which was taken out much earlier (long before 2004). I decided to get the copy agreements of both of the accounts and, to my surprise, they couldn't initially provide an agreement for the newer account, let alone the older one! For both the accounts they sent some blank agreements and copies of terms and conditions which clearly suggested they didn't have copies of the original agreements. I challenged them on this and after several letters to and fro they eventually sent me a photocopy of a supposedly scanned copy of the original document for the newer account and For the older account they sent a clearly unenforceable copy of an application form with no prescribed terms on it. Although the document for the newer account was clearly an application form, I intially thought when I looked at it that the document was compliant with the regulations, etc., until I noticed something strange! I suddenly noticed that the printed name and address showed me, at my previous address; the address I was living in at the time, however, in the address was also the name of my ex-wife's company, which she didn't start until some time after this application was made! So there was no way this could have been on this application form, and even it this application had been made after the company was in existence, and the name had appeared on it like this I would have rejected it because it was not my company! The account was applied for in the name of my own business (it was a business Credit card) and this name clearly appears on the hand written part of the application form, in my hand writing; this has no relationship to the company which my ex-wife runs! I was therefore very puzzled as to how her company name could have got onto an application form which was completed before this company's name was even thought of! Of course this company now trades from her address (she still lives at the address on the application form).

 

This got me thinking and examining the document in more detail. It was then that I noticed a few more things, such as the fact that the two page document (which look like they were probably back and front of a single page) had a different number of columns on them; the front had three whilst the back had two. The two on the back were the same width together as the right two on the front and were positioned to the right of the A4 paper that it had been photocopied onto with a blank area where any third column would have been. I then examined the front to find that the left hand column, which included the printed name and address, had sections with different widths; not something which usually appears on a form like this! I then turned my attention to the signature on it, which was like a black blob with a black signature surrounded by a white border! It looks most odd! It also seems strange that the prescribed terms appear in the left hand column and look as if they have been cobbled together from some other documents with different column widths! All in all this document appears to be fabricated to me! Not only have they fabricated the document but they have got the wrong information on it!

 

Where does this leave me with this account as far as enforceability is concerned? I am guessing that they don't have an original signed agreement and this "scanned" document, is not only scanned, but it was scanned in parts from several documents and assembled to make a compliant document! I am certain that it is a fabricated document, assembled electronically. I know that the law is different in relation to newer agreements post 2004, but wondered it anyone could advise me on this one? How would them obviously fabricating a document affect enforceability?

 

I will scan and upload the documents if anyone would like to have a look to give me their opinion. Thanks.

Edited April 27, 2010 by colin21958

[Craigbadger]

I think you should post them up, some of the experts on here will spot any problems with them.

From experience(reading endless capone threads), its very doubtful the older one would be enforceable. Not sure in regards to the other. Is it the actual copy you signed or a reconstituted?, if it is meant to be the original but you are positive its been tampered then thats clear fraud. If its a reconstituted then its clearly inaccurate.

 

Get those scans up though, you'll get far more help

[colin21958]

I think you should post them up, some of the experts on here will spot any problems with them.

From experience(reading endless capone threads), its very doubtful the older one would be enforceable. Not sure in regards to the other. Is it the actual copy you signed or a reconstituted?, if it is meant to be the original but you are positive its been tampered then thats clear fraud. If its a reconstituted then its clearly inaccurate.

 

Get those scans up though, you'll get far more help

 

 

The newer one is DEFINITELY fabricated; I think the two right hand columns were probably from the application form I signed, but the left hand column with the wrong company details, sections with uneven column widths, and the prescribed terms has definitely been added! It has to have been tampered with because the company whose name appears on it was not mine and indeed not even in existence at that time!

 

Thanks for your reply, I will get the scans up as soon as I can.

[colin21958]

In the letter they sent with the newer agreement they stated that this was a "scanned copy of the original signed agreement". I am certain this has to be false and therefore I believe they have committed fraud. I shall post links to the document here in a few minutes. Just trying to get them uploaded to photobucket.

[colin21958]

OK, here are the scans:

 

"Front page of document":

 

Capital One Agreement Page 1 picture by colin21958 - Photobucket

 

"Back Page of document":

 

Capital One Agreement Page 2 picture by colin21958 - Photobucket

[Craigbadger]

i cant give any concrete info on the enforceability of the agreement but to me it looks like a pamphlet hence the wierd look of it. Maybe try asking somoene in this thread. Almost the unofficial cap 1 fanclub but you will definitely get more info on that agreement.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/172543-just-recieved-signed-capital-75.html

[miss muppet]

I believe its the usual Capital One application form, clues on the 2nd page:)

[Dotty50]

Hi Colin,

 

If, as you say they have input details of your ex wifes company they clearly something is amiss and I would certainly be writing back and questioning this with them. Do you know or can you establish whether she has since applied for a Crap 1 card, otherwise where would these details have been obtained from?

 

This isn't an application form, it clearly states Credit Card Agreement at the top and seems ok to me.

 

I can't see anywhere that it refers to terms and conditions on the reverse but in a separate leaflet supplied.

 

Is that your account number showing at the top?

Edited May 4, 2010 by Dotty50

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Colin,

 

They have been creative! From what you have said about the address/company not being at all credible it's clear someone at Capone is trying to be very clever. (Big mistake, obviously.)

 

The earlier one is very unlikely to be compliant as they won't let anyone see them. Personally, I am suggesting that anyone with later ones follows the same process which is to write to them saying you have concerns about the authenticity of the document and wish to visit them to inspect it. I wouldn't raise the points about the wrong address/company, etc., in the first letter - you can save that until later.

 

You can also of course report them to OFT, FOS, and the police if you believe the document to be fraudulent, so their response to your request should be illuminating.

 

Let's see what they say. As far as I am aware no-one who has asked to inspect a post-2006 has been allowed to do so, although I could be wrong on that. It's worth your asking that question back on Sunflower's thread.

 

DD

[colin21958]

Thanks for all the comments. I have already told them I believe this is a fabricated agreement and they have not denied it! I have told them that I can prove it but not told them how! I have also already reported them to the OFT telling them what I think they have done. I will ask them if I can view the original agreement and see what they say! ...

Edited May 4, 2010 by colin21958

[Dotty50]

Well you seem to be in control Colin, I think I would just wait and see what the FOS come back with.

 

Don't think you will get an invite to view the original however!

[colin21958]

Hi Colin,

 

If, as you say they have input details of your ex wifes company they clearly something is amiss and I would certainly be writing back and questioning this with them. Do you know or can you establish whether she has since applied for a Crap 1 card, otherwise where would these details have been obtained from?

 

She has a Cap one card, but has had it for quite a long time now; still not sure where they got the company associated with this address unless they got it from her website; the address and company name are on there!

 

This isn't an application form, it clearly states Credit Card Agreement at the top and seems ok to me.

 

I think they have put this document together from several sources; the column width variations within the sections of column one being a big clue; I have never before seen any document printed with variations like this! Also, note that there is a big gap at the bottom of the second column which would probably allow for the address to be in the column somewhere (you will note that the third column refers to the name and address "opposite")

 

I can't see anywhere that it refers to terms and conditions on the reverse but in a separate leaflet supplied.

 

Is that your account number showing at the top?

 

No, its not; I have no idea what that is!

 

I am certain that this is a fabrication; I can't see anyway it can't be!

Edited May 4, 2010 by colin21958

[Dotty50]

Further observations,

 

Bottom of 1st column, if my eyesight correct.

 

It states, see current amounts of other charges and other features below and sections 11, 12, 13 and 18 for other charges under this agreement. If that is at the bottom of the page, how can anything be below?

 

Half way down the 2nd column, form of consent, it mentions section 14 in THIS agreement. Where are any of these sections?

 

Bottom of column 2, there is a vertical set of numbers, IMO these numbers would normally be on the right or left hand side of the page, certainly not in the middle.

 

Seems like a cut'n'shut agreement on further inspection, can't disagree with you Colin.

[colin21958]

Further observations,

 

Bottom of 1st column, if my eyesight correct.

 

It states, see current amounts of other charges and other features below and sections 11, 12, 13 and 18 for other charges under this agreement. If that is at the bottom of the page, how can anything be below?

 

Half way down the 2nd column, form of consent, it mentions section 14 in THIS agreement. Where are any of these sections?

 

Bottom of column 2, there is a vertical set of numbers, IMO these numbers would normally be on the right or left hand side of the page, certainly not in the middle.

 

Seems like a cut'n'shut agreement on further inspection, can't disagree with you Colin.

 

Well spotted Dotty! I hadn't even noticed the points you mention!

[Desperate Daniella]

That is the wonderful thing about this forum - so many people see so many different things.

[sunflower99]

Further observations,

 

Bottom of 1st column, if my eyesight correct.

 

It states, see current amounts of other charges and other features below and sections 11, 12, 13 and 18 for other charges under this agreement. If that is at the bottom of the page, how can anything be below?

 

Half way down the 2nd column, form of consent, it mentions section 14 in THIS agreement. Where are any of these sections?

 

Bottom of column 2, there is a vertical set of numbers, IMO these numbers would normally be on the right or left hand side of the page, certainly not in the middle.

 

Seems like a cut'n'shut agreement on further inspection, can't disagree with you Colin.

well spotted Dqtty!

[Dotty50]

Must have gone to Specsavers!

[Craigbadger]

My widescreen died so i'm limited to a 13" laptop screen and cant read a thing.

 

But it certainly looks very wrong though in the way its set out .

 

Most agreements end

 

"Signed"

 

"Your right to cancel"

 

But with the signature sat in the middle looks so odd but then then it was probably an a4 turned on its side.

Lets just say it was sent out like that to a customer to sign, you'd never find the bit to sign and they are asking you to sign before applying.

 

 

Confusing as per usual

Edited May 5, 2010 by Craigbadger

[rockwell304]

Colin, any further developments? Following this with interest as I have a March 2006 Cap One agreement. Mine is a much more professional job but there are still doubts!

R

[colin21958]

Colin, any further developments? Following this with interest as I have a March 2006 Cap One agreement. Mine is a much more professional job but there are still doubts!

R

 

Hi Rockwell,

 

As it happens I have just been reading your thread and am aware of your situation. I have sent letters to them telling them I KNOW that the agreement is fabricated, also told them I can PROVE it, but have not told them how I know or what is wrong with it. This account was still with Capital One when I received this agreement, but has since been passed around to several DCA's, each time I get a letter I just write and tell them about the fraudulent Agreement and tell them that if they perpetuate the fraud by chasing me I will hold them as accessories to the fraud when it comes to court. Funnily enough, each time I just get a letter saying they are passing the account back to Capital One! It's now with CapQuest and I received a letter from then a week or so ago; I wrote the usual stuff to them and I received a letter yesterday saying they were "looking into my request for further information..." :? Tossers!

 

Let me know if anything develops on your case and good luck!

 

Colin

[rockwell304]

Colin,

 

It seems you have a firm grip on their vitals! I have Capquest also, now telling me they will pass to HL Legal for litigation. They sound sure of themselves!

 

Will keep you informed!

 

All the best,

R

[colin21958]

Colin,

 

It seems you have a firm grip on their vitals! I have Capquest also, now telling me they will pass to HL Legal for litigation. They sound sure of themselves!

 

Will keep you informed!

 

All the best,

R

 

They always sound sure of themselves, but imo its all bluff; I think they will back off in the end.

[colin21958]

Colin,

 

It seems you have a firm grip on their vitals! I have Capquest also, now telling me they will pass to HL Legal for litigation. They sound sure of themselves!

 

Will keep you informed!

 

All the best,

R

 

BTW, I've had HL Legal have a go, but they backed off as well; they were in line before CapQuest!

[Craigbadger]

My prediction, well actually my experience, you wont hear from them until the day before they terminate. My view is they see you as a difficult customer and offload you asap. They wont answer your questions, merely swerve around them.

 

 

 

ps have a read of this dated 4/5/10. This is a reply to a letter sent ?/3/10

 

defaulted on 5/5/10

 

I had written saying I wanted to see the reverse of the so called agreement as what they had sent was junk.

 

I posted this on the debt forum and they think its written, so to deliberately mislead your average layman. First 2 paragraphs is just everywhere, talk about confusing, what was the original agreement??.

Sorry to hijak, thought this might give you an idea what to expect.

 

http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af299/badgercraig/Letter/letter1maycap1.jpg?t=1274189617

 

 

http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af299/badgercraig/Letter/letter1bmaycap1.jpg?t=1274189822

Edited May 18, 2010 by Craigbadger

[lexis200]

Thanks for all the comments. I have already told them I believe this is a fabricated agreement and they have not denied it! I have told them that I can prove it but not told them how! I have also already reported them to the OFT telling them what I think they have done. I will ask them if I can view the original agreement and see what they say! ...

 

They won't.

 

Mine is almost certainly a Blue Peter job. As with most of the older agreements (mine's 04 if memory serves), they reference term 23 overleaf - the overleaf terms go 1, 2, oddly mucked up digit followed by a 3 to imitate a 23. Perhaps the drafter did fail remedial counting, or perhaps it was 1,2,3 but this didn't quite fit their needs...

 

In addition the front page of mine has very definite fold marks, but the back page has none and is a clearer type. There are a couple of other minor points but the main two are pretty cut and dried in showing they have mocked up a full agreement from my original front page and A N Other back page.

 

I've written to them many times asking for a yes or no answer to my question of whether the copy they sent originated from a single document, and every time they reply with 'we have sent you a copy of your agreement as requested on x date, now sod off' (I may be paraphrasing a little here;)) I have also stated that I will travel at my expense to their offices in Nottingham to see the original, or would be happy to view it at a venue nearer me. This has been completely ignored - not even alluded to in their responses, and I've asked this many times too. Even a letter to their CEO stating the above didn't elicit a response (apparently he's too busy to respond to letters, even those that hint at fraud on their part...)

 

Cap1 seem utterly incapable of answering a straight question, but where other banks will take your question and twist their answer, Cap1 deal with it by completely ignoring it:mad:

 

I hope you get somewhere with it, good luck!