Hippo v Barclays

[Micky the Hippo]

hello

 

I'm at the N1/MCOL stage with NW now and the LBA stage with Barclays

 

My claims until now have been for charges alone, in my haste (yes, I know, bad man) I confused the interest claimable on the charges with the 8% not to be added until the court stage

 

I now realise that I could safely have claimed the authorised interest rate on my my charges (I think)

 

Is it too late to add authorised interest to my claim(s) now? Do I have to stick to charges only claim?

 

Thanks for your advice

[Guest bong]

you will have to write to them giving them a chance to pay it before you claim it through court. Dont have to start again from scratch, just make sure you point it out in the LBAs.

[Micky the Hippo]

Thank-you

 

On reading the step by steps on this site I realise that they say don't claim such interest, so perhaps not so bad after all

 

I've LBAes both banks now anyway, plain charges alone, and I also read tonight that if I claim authorised interest then I can't claim the court 8% so the difference isn't so great

 

I think I'll stick to the plain and simple court 8% this time around

 

Am I right to think that once I've issued the MCOL thing, they're bound to pay the the 8% interest, even if they settle before court?

 

Thanks again and a general thank to the site owners, superb resource

[Guest bong]

I don't want to confuse the situation for you, you might be happy with just the charges back, but there are several different types of interest referred to on this site.

 

overdraft interest - you can claim back whatever overdraft interest you have been charged due to the charges. You will need to use the complex (advanced) spreadsheet to work out what you can claim back. It isn't complex as the name suggests but you might not think its worth the work if you haven't paid much overdraft interest. This must be claimed pre-court stage and is not related at all to contractual or statutory interest which is added to the claim.

 

contractual interest - claimed at the rate charged by the bank and is compounded - I wont go into all the ins and outs, its a BIG topic and there are some long old threads dedicated to the subject if you are interested in claiming this. Some people claim the unauthorised rate and others the authorised rate. It is an alternative to being awarded statutory 8% interest, and you must also claim it pre-court stage. Usually people write in their court claim that they are claiming contractual interest but if the court doesn't award it they wish to claim statutory interest in the alternative.

 

statutory interest - 8% simple interest - this is claimed only at the court stage and although it isnt exactly guaranteed (it is a discretionary award) I've never seen a case where it hasnt been paid.

[Micky the Hippo]

I have waded through the big thread, honest

 

If I've already LBAed both claims is it too late now or can I claim interest other than the 8% at the MCOL/N1 stage, without mentioning it previously to the banks

 

I've still not grasped the overdraft interest thing. Is it basically the interest rate for my overdraft on whatever charges they charged me?

 

And the 8% is on top of and separate to that?

 

Thanks for your efforts, I always seem to read this site at the end of long days when I'm knackered, so sorry if I seem a bit dense

[Guest bong]

I have waded through the big thread, honest

Are you ready for a test then? only joking

 

If I've already LBAed both claims is it too late now or can I claim interest other than the 8% at the MCOL/N1 stage, without mentioning it previously to the banks

 

no, you have to write and give them a chance to pay before you make a court claim

 

 

I've still not grasped the overdraft interest thing. Is it basically the interest rate for my overdraft on whatever charges they charged me?

 

the spreadsheet will do the calculations for you. you put in the charges, the overdraft interest you've been charged and your account balance at that date and it works out what proportion of the o/d interest you can reclaim.

 

And the 8% is on top of and separate to that?

 

yes

 

 

hope that helps

[Micky the Hippo]

it does help, thank-you

 

so if I work it out and want to claim it it, I'd have to start all over at the demand letter stage? stopping the the LBA/N1 process I'm at?

I suspect the answer to that last question will see me satisfied and ready to go, thank-you for your patience

[Guest bong]

you would need to send new LBAs

[Micky the Hippo]

Thank-you

 

So no need to send the initial demand again?

 

Send new LBA's with a quick sentence to say that it replaces any previous LBAs?

 

Brill, going to tackle the Complex sheet tonight, I suspect the interest will be significant and all the better if the 8% is on top

 

I think I understand the various arguments regarding rates of interest, the 16.9% on charges is solid isn't it? The others gradually more debatable?

 

Thanks again, I suppose I should start a whoever v whoever thread about now before things start getting more fiddly, I have to say as things progress it all seems straightforward enough

 

I had a reply from Barclays asking for four weeks to look at it and eight weeks to reply, I plain and simple ignore that don't I?

[Guest bong]

Thank-you

 

So no need to send the initial demand again?

 

no, just LBAs, but make it clear that you are revising your previous claim, say something like this includes overdraft interest caused by the charges which I had omitted to include in my last letter.

 

Send new LBA's with a quick sentence to say that it replaces any previous LBAs?

 

yes, see above

 

Brill, going to tackle the Complex sheet tonight, I suspect the interest will be significant and all the better if the 8% is on top

 

I think I understand the various arguments regarding rates of interest, the 16.9% on charges is solid isn't it? The others gradually more debatable?

 

now, have you decided to claim contractual interest then? It doesn't sound like it if you're still referring to claiming 8% on top.

If you do mean contractual, I suggest you take your time to do LOTS of reading of other threads. I mean at least a weekend, if not several, before you make a decision. Honestly, you need to understand your arguments for claiming it and there are a few interpretations which I can't summarise for you. this is because if it came to court it would be you responsible for your claim and not because someone told you it could be claimed. I'm not sure where you get 16.9% from, or what you mean by solid?

 

Thanks again, I suppose I should start a whoever v whoever thread about now before things start getting more fiddly, I have to say as things progress it all seems straightforward enough

 

Yes, start a thread in your bank's forum and make sure you understand your claim fully and most importantly get the figures right before you make your claim at court. It is not easy to change your claim once it has been issued and could put you at a disadvantage if the bank discovers that you haven't done your homework on what you're claiming. especially if CI is involved.

 

I had a reply from Barclays asking for four weeks to look at it and eight weeks to reply, I plain and simple ignore that don't I?

 

you are issuing the timetable, not them, but don't rush, take your time to get it right.

 

[Micky the Hippo]

Thanks again

 

I.m thinking that a claim for the interest the bank charged on my arranged overdraft of 16.9% (in NatWest's case, I think) was a straightforward matter to claim as it's clearly added to the charges taken from my account

 

ie a £100 they took from my account in a given month is always missing thereafter and therefore the overdraft interest rate charged on that missing £100 is easy to show and easy to claim

 

or am I getting that wrong? the more advanced and complex arguments regarding Unarranged Borrowing Interest rates and compound interest looked like the trickier more aggressive ones to me

 

Hear what you say on preparation and care but I'm sure my claims are by the book so far, following the step by steps on this site, plain charges and now the court's 8% interest, it's now that I've realise that there's some additional charges/interest that seems fairly easy to claim back

 

Thanks again, your time is greatly appreciated

[Guest bong]

ok, then you're talking about claiming back the overdraft interest they've debited (relating to the charges only) and not contractual interest (CI). In that case, you don't need to worry about what rate they applied, all you need to know is the amount they took and as I said earlier, the complex spreadsheet works out the bit that you can reclaim.

[Micky the Hippo]

excellent

 

thank-you once again, you're a saint, your caution about claiming CI tallies with my assessment based on the big thread

 

I'll kick off my 'me v them' threads shortly

 

and I double promise to kick back some of my winnings to the site

[Guest bong]

glad we got there in the end

[Micky the Hippo]

Yes we did/have

 

I just wanted to be absolutely clear, as you advised me to be

 

And now I am thanks to your patience and time

 

Thanks again

[Micky the Hippo]

Hello everyone, top forum

 

I've sent the demand for payment to Barclays, charges only totalling about £1,400

 

got a letter about looking into it etc etc, whatever

 

then I went on holiday instead of doing the LBA

 

then I decided to claim the interest using the 'complex spreadsheet', that means a new letter demanding payment, no probs there

 

now I'm dithering on claiming contractual interest, either authorised or unauthorised, it adds a lot of money and I do understand the crux of the principle and I do feel it's owed

 

what's making me dither is how much extra hassle it'll be, will it involve a lot more paperwork and a more protracted and stiff opposition to the claim? Will I have to cobble together more legalese arguments? I'm very much liking the templates and the cut and paste style stuff so far and I don't want to do any extra work quite frankly, I just don't have the time

 

is it basically a matter of following the correct procedure all the way to the court date and calling their bluff, even with contractual interest, my claim will always be less than £2,500. Or is adding contractual interest more likely to get me into an actual court?

 

thanks

ps. how in the name of the baby do some of you people get claims into the £5k+? I thought I was sloppy and careless!

[Micky the Hippo]

Hippo is much heartened by other's threads of claiming contractual interest

 

I've recalculated my claims using vampiress (bless her) 's complex sheet with contractual interest at 27.5%

 

Crikey it bumps it up

 

But it's exactly what they'd have done to me in the same circumstances, and some

 

All off in the post later this week as a new Prelim letter

[Micky the Hippo]

yikes

 

just seen the mighty mindzai's sheet using compound interest, getting silly now

 

oof!

 

charges and interest at compound interest at the unauthorised rate it is!

 

now to rework the Natwest figures

 

christ this all feels good

[Micky the Hippo]

All done and sent off as a new Prelim letter, stopping the first claim

 

Total now up to £3.5K with compound CI

 

I've also sent a new SAR asking for the six years of statements prior to the last six years

 

all stickered with the very smart and impressive CAG stickers

[Micky the Hippo]

offer today relating to my initial claim, presumably crossing with my revised claim by a few days

 

it's for £1080, 80% of my initial claim for charges only, not too bad considering it was post LBA but pre anything else

 

anyhow, the standard letter of rejection I suppose with a bit stuck on referring them to my second revised claim sent earlier

 

nice to be seeing four figure offers, I'd probably have grabbed that a few weeks ago before reading all the good stuff on here, knowledge is power fo sure

 

doing that now and upgrading my filing from a pile of paper to a real grown up lever arch file

[CAZKATJOE]

Good offer I must say, good on you for going for the lot.

Ive never received an offer, i would have loved to say shove it !!! (in a nice way of course).

So good luck

caz:)

[Micky the Hippo]

five days before getting this I posted off a reworked claim using the same charges but with compound contractual interest at the unauthorised rate, which does rather up the ante in no uncertain terms

 

and thanks

[Micky the Hippo]

nothing from they

 

LBA in the Rec post tomorrow

[Micky the Hippo]

LBA sent out last Friday 27th

 

Today a letter in reply to my Prelim letter offering me £1,020 to settle my £3.5k claim

 

Bit bloody poor considering they offered me £1,080 against my initial claim for £1,350

 

Ah well, at least there's a dialogue and things are progressing

[Micky the Hippo]

ooookay, Hippo's back and on the case

 

mcol/N1 was due over a week ago but the end of the football season and general lack of cash and dithering means I'm only ready to start now

 

I've something I filed away a while ago that I'm going to use on an N1, as below, everyone happy with it? It's yet to be filled in with numbers and interest rates and dates and so on, any good bits to chuck in gratefully received, and howls of 'for god's sake don't use that' gratefully received

 

this'll be going to Barclays and Natwest at more or less the same time, my other claims are still festering at the SAR stage

 

thanks all

.....................

 

1. The Claimant has a bank account, number ******** (“the Account”), maintained at the Defendant’s Dunstable Branch (sort code )

 

2. The Account is governed by the Defendant’s Personal Banking Terms and Conditions (“the contract”)

 

3. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant has debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged overdraft interest on the charges once applied.

 

4. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

5. A schedule of the charges is attached to these particulars of claim (Appendix 1).

 

6. The Claimant will rely on the Competition Commission’s report entitled “Northern Irish Personal Banking,” published on 20th October, 2006, as evidence that the Defendant is aware that the income derived from its default charges is calculated to generate material profits and is not merely a means of recouping losses incurred in relation to Account defaults. The defendant is fully aware of this report as Ulster Bank is a subsidiary to RBS (defendant).

 

7. The Claimant will further rely on the Office of Fair Trading’s (“the OFT”) statement of 5th April 2006 concerning default charges in credit card contracts, as the OFT’s recommendations regarding standard default terms in credit card contracts have wider implications, as regards bank current Account agreements.

 

8. The Claimant thus contends that:

a) The charges debited to the Account:

i) are punitive in nature;

ii) are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant;

iii) exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract

on the part of the Claimant;

iv) are not intended to represent or relate to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) Further to 8.a), the charges debited to the Account are penalties rather than liquidated damages. A charge is held to be a penalty if the sum stipulated for is extravagant and unconscionable in amount in comparison to the greatest loss that could conceivably be proved to have followed from the breach. A penalty clause is void in its entirety and unenforceable.

 

c) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

d) In the alternative to 8.a), b) and c), if the Court finds that the charges are not a penalty, then the Claimant contends that they are unreasonable within the meaning of s.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982

 

 

9. Contractual Interest

a) The Claimant claims compound interest on the amounts claimed under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, using the rate and method specified in the said contract, and as is applied by the Defendant to monies it is owed.

 

b) The Claimant’s grounds for seeking restitution of the compounded contractual rate of interest is that the Defendant would be unjustly enriched if the Claimant's entitlement was limited to the statutory rate of interest in that the Defendant has had use of the sums and would have used these sums to re-lend at commercial compounded rates.

 

c) The Claimant contends that the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account is unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant. Therefore, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, in the first instance the Claimant has calculated compound interest originally charged by the defendant, being 29.50%.

 

d) In the alternative to 9.c), should the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account not be deemed to be unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant, then, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s authorised borrowing rate, being 16.99%.

 

e) In the alternative to 9.c) and d), if the Court decides that the Claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, then the Claimant has calculated interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year

 

f) Details of interest calculated & rates used are attached to these Particulars of Claim (Appendix 1) as follows:

Column1 – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 29.50%

Column 2 – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 16.99%

Column 3 – Simple interest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at an annual rate

of 8.00%

 

10. Accordingly, the Claimant claims:

a) The return of the amounts debited between 12/12/200 and 13/10/06 in respect of charges in the sum of £xxxx.

 

b) All applicable Court fees

 

c) Contractual interest at an annual 29.50 % compounded daily from the date of each transaction to 21st January 2007 of £xxxx, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx

 

d) In the alternative to 10.c), Contractual interest at an annual rate of 16.99% compounded daily from the date of each transaction to 21st January 2007 of £xxxx and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx

 

e) In the alternative to 10.c) and d), interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year, from the date of each transaction to 21st January 2007, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx