Chris v Morgan Stanley (urgent help Please)

[chris5664]

Hi,

 

I am deeply concerned about this and would appreciate good sound advice please.

 

I have had a Morgan Stanley Credit Card since March 2000 - Now owned by Barclaycard.

 

I CCA (all templates from CAG) them in Feb 2009 and received no response. I have not paid them since and I have not received any telephone calls or any DCA.

 

Today I have received in there opinion my CCA.

 

I have looked and

 

• Its looks like an application form.
  
• Its illegible.
  
• The time living at my address is wrong and seems to be in a different hand writing and also different pen.
  
• It seems like a lot has been cut and pasted (see 4 on the CCA)
  
• If you look at the boxes they are out of line.
  
• No signature from Morgan Stanley.
  
• It is just appears like a poor imitation.
  

Can any one help with a letter to send to Barclaycard, also is this fraud?

 

Any help please.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Chris

 

 

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/chris5664/MSDW1.jpg[/img]

 

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/chris5664/MSDW2.jpg[/img]

 

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/chris5664/MSDW3.jpg[/img]

Edited April 23, 2009 by chris5664

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Chris,

 

This is ALMOST EXACTLY the same as the 'agreement' they sent me, except the cut and pasting is different, and you have Questions 9 and 10, which I don't. How odd is that? One application form asks about PPI and Protecting your Cards, but the other doesn't.

 

Incidentally this is absolutely spooky because we both applied for the cards on exactly the same date.

 

My Q4 is missing under Q3 and Q5 starts halfway down opposite Q1 - there is no Q4 at all.

 

There are various other discrepancies too - references to Conditions which aren't on the second page which is apparently the T&Cs. Also, having seen your form with the question about the PPI, I have looked at mine again, and there is a reference in 'About the Agreement' - "If I have applied for Payment Protection Plan ......" but that question isn't on my form.

 

I have always had a theory in the six months I have been here that if we compare enough 'agreements' we will be able to spot the cut and paste jobs, and I think we have here.

 

I wrote to Barclaycard about the discrepancies in January but have had no response other than threats from Mercers/Calders/Scotcall.

 

I don't know if we can accuse them of fraud. I cannot believe they were issuing almost identical forms in the same month but what we are being sent is different. You ticked PPI, but I know I didn't and that box is missing from my form!

 

If no-one from the site teams comes back on this in the next couple of hours or so I'll bump it, or ask someone to comment for us. Clearly one of us has a dodgy form.

 

DD

[slick132]

Hi Chris,

 

Has Box 4 on the Application been blanked out like that on your copy. If so, it certainly suggests the doc't has been messed with.

 

Would you have ticked the PPI box as shown.

 

The date in section 1 looks odd, as you say.

 

Have you checked the doc't for enforceability. Specifically check to see if it contains the Prescribed Terms. See here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html

[chris5664]

Hi,

This document that I have put on the site is exactly how I received it.

It is illegible and just looks wrong.

I think that I did tick my PPI application so that would be right, but this was 9 years a go.

Your quote “Have you checked the doc't for enforceability. Specifically check to see if it contains the Prescribed Terms”. I cannot - as it is illegible its just like the one I have out on the site.

I am deeply concerned about this.

What can I write or do about this as this is I am sure a fake.

Regards

Chris

[slick132]

Hi Chris,

 

Steven's Tutorial on Consumer Credit Agreements includes the following quote in post #4:-

3 Other considerations

 

In addition to the above, there is a requirement that an agreement should be legible under regulation 2 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

Write to BC and complain that:-

 

1. The doc't is not legible as required by the above-mentioned Regulations.

 

2. The documents appears to have been fabricated/recreated, and does not appear to be an unadulterated copy of the original document.

 

Ask BC to send you a legible copy of the unadulterated document, or they should confirm that your original agreement is NOT available.

 

You can tell them, if they fail to respond properly, you'll consider going to court to seek a ruling that the agreement is not enfoceable.

[chris5664]

Hi,

 

Thanks for all this.

 

Is there a strong template letter that I could send or can I ask can some one draft me one up.

 

I feel that this is a fake.

 

Kind regards

 

Chris

[slick132]

I don't know of a template that accuses them of knocking up a fake doc't.

 

Draft your own letter based on my last post and put it here. I'll gladly read it and make any amendments.

 

Keep the letter brief and polite. See how you get on.

[chris5664]

Hi,

 

The reason I asked for help is that I am not very good at letters especially when it comes to things like this - but I have had a go. :grin:

 

 

Please what do you think of this.

 

Regards

 

Chris

 

 

24th April 2009

 

 

 

My address

 

 

 

Barclaycard

1234 Pavilion Drive

Northampton

NN4 1SG

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

Acc/Ref No

 

Account in Dispute

 

 

I refer to your letter dated 21St April 2009

 

You have failed to acknowledge this request by not supplying a true copy of my Consumer Credit Act 1974 agreement.

 

Further I have deep concerns about this application form that you have sent me for the following reasons

 

• The document is not legible as required by the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.
  
• The documents appear to have been fabricated/ recreated, and does not appear to be an unadulterated copy of the original document.
  

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply a True copy of these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document, if not please confirm that you do not hold a true copy.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which I have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides.

 

Please confirm by no later than 4pm on 10th May 2009 that you will comply with my request or, if you will not comply, please provide your reasons in writing.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

Mr

Edited April 25, 2009 by chris5664

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Chris,

 

I actually asked them about specific points. I can pm you my letter if you like. However, Slick and others might think it's best to be vague.

 

I need to write them another letter now asking about 9 and 10!!

 

Also I personally never write back by return - this was something I was told by a lawyer some years ago. Some things - Court stuff, etc., must be responded to quickly - but anything else can be left for a week or so, or longer. Makes you look less bothered he told me. If you jump to attention too quickly they think they have got you rattled. I have learned on CAG that despite all the bank's/dcas threats that they will send doorsteppers/issue court proceedings and so on, it takes them much longer to take that step than they imply.

 

Up to you of course - we all choose how we handle it.

 

DD

[chris5664]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

I would be grateful and interested to see your letter, can I ask is mine ok.

The problem is that I am always unsure of what to put, I know what I want to say like ‘Bog off’etc, but I read the letters you guys put on this site and I think that’s the dog’s bits.

So any help please.

Chris

[slick132]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for making the effort. Your letter was good and gave me the basis for this version:-

Dear sir or madam,

Account No: xxxx xxxx

I refer to your letter dated 21st April sent in response to my request made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

I believe you have not responded adequately to my request because:-

1. The "Credit Agreement" document is not legible as required by the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

2. The documents appear to have been fabricated/ recreated, and does not appear to be an unadulterated copy of the original document.

 

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply a True copy of these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document, if not please confirm that you do not hold a true copy.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that, by supplying the document which I have asked for, it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides.

 

Please confirm by no later than 4pm on 10th May 2009 that you will comply with my request or, if you will not comply, please provide your reasons in writing.

 

Yours faithfully,

[chris5664]

Hi,

Thanks yet again for all your help.

I do have one concern, this CCA/ Application has clearly been tampered with and distorted. Should I report this or even could I not make claim for deceit? As I am sure that they would?

Thanks any way

Chris

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Chris,

 

This is what I sent in January - no reply at all. Calders chased and I told them I was waiting for a reply and they said I must phone and chase and because I was in a good mood I said I would. They gave me a number to call and needless to say it was an answerphone and I left a message and my call was not returned.

 

I keep getting letters from Calder and they sent a Scotcaller last week. He left very quietly when I gave him the 'Licence to revoke your permission to be here' letter. In fact he apologized and said he was only doing his job.

 

 

 

I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 12th January 2009 enclosing what you confirm to be a copy of my original Morgan Stanley Credit Agreement. This is in fact my original Application Form for a Morgan Stanley Dean Witter Platinum Card, together with some “Financial and Related Particulars” which appear not to have any connection with the Application form.

 

As you must be aware, this is not a properly executed Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

It is scarcely legible, as any copy must be, but I can decipher most of it.

 

On the Application form in the ‘Data Protection’ box there is a reference to Condition 16 of the Terms and Conditions. There is no Condition 16 anywhere in the paperwork you have sent me.

 

In the “Financial and Related Particulars”, there are ten single points, but there are references to Condition 6.8 and Condition 10.4 which are not contained within these Particulars.

 

I should be grateful if you would explain these discrepancies.

 

Until such time as you provide a properly executed Credit Card Agreement this account remains in dispute.

 

 

To my shame - because of the way it was photocopied - I didn't notice I was missing Q4, but there is no way I could have known that I was missing 9 and 10.

 

The 'Please Sign and Return' paragraph is numbered 11 on yours and 9 on mine.

 

I think I want to report them but FOS is very slow. I don't know what the OFT would do either.

 

If we have incontrovertible evidence that they are creating agreements, rather than providing a true copy, that is very serious. I absolutely don't believe that they had two different forms of agreement in January 2000 some with Qs 9 and 10 and some without. Why would they want to miss any opportunity of flogging PPI?

 

Their letter clearly states that they are enclosing a copy of my original agreement - not that it is "Edited Highlights" for want of a better expression.

 

Slick, What do you think we should do?

 

DD

Edited April 25, 2009 by Desperate Daniella

[chris5664]

Hi all,

Desperate Daniella, I totally agree but I would like some one to give us both some sound advice on this, in my mind its fraud and I am sure in the eyes of the law this would be as well.

In my letter from Barclaycard they state that this “a copy of your original credit agreement at the time you opened your account”.

I feel that we should send a letter saying if you wish to pursue my alleged debt I will pursue you for fraud.

Advice please.

Thanks

Chris

[Desperate Daniella]

Totally agree with you Chris. I think it is fraud too. I started a thread about this a few months ago, and got a response from someone saying they couldn't believe a bank would do anything like this.

 

We need expert help here.

 

DD

[chris5664]

Hi D D,

I had a good read of your thread.

Can any one advise of what action we should do.

Thanks

Chris

[slick132]

Hi Chris,

 

I'm fully aware that you believe the document is a lash-up.

 

My suggested letter addresses this (at item No 2) but without saying it's fraud, illegal or anything similar.

 

I don't think there's a need, at this stage, to accuse them of anything - just see how they reply.

 

You can raise your concerns with the FOS, if BC fail to answer you satisfactorily.

[chris5664]

Hi Slick,

 

I will follow your advice and I will send the letter

 

I will be patient and see what they say.

 

Kind regards

 

Chris

[chris5664]

Hi,

Just received this from Mercers

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/chris5664/scan0002-2.jpg

I was angry, so I rang them up and said that this is in serious dispute why are you sending letters, she asked why it was in dispute. I told her that I have not received a properly executed credit agreement. She said have you asked for one!!!!!!! (just for the past 5 months)

She also said that the FSO has informed them that they can still pursue the debt even though it’s in dispute. ??????

I was that angry I said take me to court.

Any advice please

[the_shadow]

Hi,

 

Just received this from Mercers

 

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/chris5664/scan0002-2.jpg

 

 

I was angry, so I rang them up and said that this is in serious dispute why are you sending letters, she asked why it was in dispute. I told her that I have not received a properly executed credit agreement. She said have you asked for one!!!!!!! (just for the past 5 months)

 

She also said that the FSO has informed them that they can still pursue the debt even though it’s in dispute. ??????

 

I was that angry I said take me to court.

 

Any advice please

 

Hmm was there a second page only the required prescribed terms for a default notice arent on that letter:)

 

S.

[chris5664]

Hi,

 

Sorry I turned the page over and this was on the back

 

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/chris5664/scan0003-1.jpg

 

What’s your views

 

5664

 

Also this is the CCA that they say is enforcable note all the cut and pastes

 

Its looks like an application form.

• Its illegible.
  
• The time living at my address is wrong and seems to be in a different hand writing and also different pen.
  
• It seems like a lot has been cut and pasted (see 4 on the CCA)
  
• If you look at the boxes they are out of line.
  
• No signature from Morgan Stanley.
  
• It is just appears like a poor imitation.
  

 

 

Edited May 9, 2009 by chris5664

[the_shadow]

Ok the default may have issues with the prescribed format terms but they are there in it. As for the date issues, the notice has to give you 14 days+2 days for service.

 

Letter is dated 7th, two working days takes you to monday the 11th and then its a straight 14 clear days to rectify... so date should be 26th May in my humble opinion.

 

As for the app, it looks a very dodgy bodge job and possibly a microfiche copy (hence such dark areas on the copy), I cant really read it to see if the prescribed terms were there but would imagine thats the reason for the cut&paste section at the bottom so it probably contains them. If they dont have a real life printed application with the prescribed terms and your signature they would have to convince a judge that the bottom bit was on the back of the agreement.

 

S.

[chris5664]

Hi,

The CCA ,

• It’s illegible
  
• It has been tampered with
  
• And I am sure there is other issues with it as well
  

Also - I have informed Barclaycard that it’s in dispute so how can they default me.

I have asked for an official complaint to be registered – no reply.

The issue is what do I do next or should I wait and see what Barclaycards next move is?

Regards

5664

[the_shadow]

Hi,

 

The CCA ,

 

• It’s illegible
  
• It has been tampered with
  
• And I am sure there is other issues with it as well
  

 

Also - I have informed Barclaycard that it’s in dispute so how can they default me.

 

I have asked for an official complaint to be registered – no reply.

 

The issue is what do I do next or should I wait and see what Barclaycards next move is?

 

 

Regards

 

 

5664

 

I'm afraid Barclaycard will default you, the debt still exists its just with a dodgy app/agreement they cant take you to court to enforce it.

 

S.

[chris5664]

Ok,

Now I am a bit confused, I thought whilst its in dispute they cannot process any of my information/ data.

If they can my credit record is in ruins anyway so another default will not mean a thing.

Bottom line is if they cannot enforce the debt through the courts what can they do?

5664