Amex Default Notices

[alangee]

Hi there, I have been browsing for a while, but this is my first post. The site is fantastic, I only wish I had found it a year ago.

 

Two years ago, Amex informed me that they had been checking my status with the CRA's and that they were suspending my accounts (Gold, Blue & Platinum) - even though I had not missed a payment and everything was up to date. I had even just paid my £200 fee for the Platinum Card. I did have payment agreements with some other creditors, but Amex was clear.

 

Within the next two months - I had stopped paying them by this time - I received default notices for each of the accounts (the Platinum had a 'flexi' account attached, so it came under the Consumer Credit Act 1974).

 

Each of the Default Notices said "To remedy this breach the payment due on your account of £xxx must be received within 14 calendar days from the date of this Default Notice"

 

The amounts quoted on the Default Notices equated to about one months payment.

 

Approximately 5 weeks later I received a Notice of Cancellation, informing me that my they had cancelled my account with immediate effect, and that all monies outstanding on the account are now payable in full.

 

Reading some of the posts on here, it would appear that as I was not given the full 14 days from receipt of the Default Notice, only 14 days from the date it was created, that the DN is defective, and that I would only need to pay the arrears quoted in the DN.

 

Two questions I have are, if it is sold to another Debt Collection Agency what happens then?

 

When do I pay Amex to satisfy the accounts, is it when they take out a CCJ on me?

 

Oh, one last thing, if the amounts in the DN are paid, does that mean that the account is now paid up and Amex would have to remove all information sent to the CRA's?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Alangee!

 

Welcome to CAG.

 

Reading some of the posts on here, it would appear that as I was not given the full 14 days from receipt of the Default Notice, only 14 days from the date it was created, that the DN is defective, and that I would only need to pay the arrears quoted in the DN.

 

The timing may be tight, what was the date on the Default Notices, as the time limit used to be 7 Clear Days but was extended to 14.

 

IOW, they may be OK if, at the time, the Law said that you only had to have 7 Clear Days. The change took place on 19/12/2006, so you could be OK if your Default Notices were dated after then.

 

See: Consumer Credit Act (1974) and related Regulations

 

The PDF you want is Post #4 of the above Sticky Thread, and it's PDF number 6...

 

Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561)

 

Details of breach of agreement and action required to remedy, or pay compensation for, the breach

 

3

 

A specification of:--

 

(a) the provision of the agreement alleged to have been breached; and

 

(b) the nature of the alleged breach of the agreement, specifying clearly the matters complained of; and either

 

© if the breach is capable of remedy, what action is required to remedy it and the date, being a date [not less than fourteen days] after the date of service of the notice, before which that action is to be taken; or

 

(d) if the breach is not capable of remedy, the sum (if any) required to be paid as compensation for the breach and the date, being a date [not less than fourteen days] after the date of service of the notice, before which it is to be paid.

 

Then look further down to the notes towards the bottom...

 

NOTES

 

Amendment

 

Para 3: in sub-paras ©, (d) words "not less than fourteen days" in square brackets substituted by SI 2006/3094, regs 2, 3.

 

Date in force: 19 December 2006: see SI 2006/3094, reg 1.

 

If Amex have now Terminated the alleged Agreements, and the Default Notices are indeed invalid, then all they can hope to claim from you would be any valid Arrears that were due before Termination.

 

This is because they need a valid Default Notice to enjoy the benefits of Section 87 (see: Consumer Credit Act 1974 then click the s87 link when there) and, without that, they have lost those benefits for ever! The Agreements are Terminated, so they cannot go back in time to issue new Valid ones!

 

Tough Processed Cheese Amex.

 

Two questions I have are, if it is sold to another Debt Collection Agency what happens then?

 

The DCA can look forward to claiming only the same Arrears!

 

Oh, one last thing, if the amounts in the DN are paid, does that mean that the account is now paid up and Amex would have to remove all information sent to the CRA's?

 

The Default Notice amounts had to be Paid within the timescale, so there's no point Paying them after the Deadline (proving when the Deadline ended will be hard anyway, as the Notices are pants by the sound of things)!

 

Amex are exceptionally good at flying off the handle half-cocked, but they often forget to put their trousers on first. Attacking people wearing just a Cowboy Hat and a grumpy face is not enough, as Amex are just starting to find out.

 

 

Cheers,

BRW

[alangee]

Hi BRW, thanks for your reply.

 

The first Default Notice arrived around the middle of January 2007. The other two accounts DN's followed on in February 2007.

 

Amex do not say 'Agreement Terminated', they say 'Agreement Cancelled', but still ask fo all the monies back.

 

Quote 'This letter serves as notice of cancellation of your account and credit card account agreement with immediate effect. All monies outstanding on the account (including any new transactions or cash advances) are now payable in full.' Unquote.

 

This was the Notice of Cancellation for the Platinum Charge Card (with the Flexi option), but the Notice of Cancellation for the other two accounts say basically the same thing.

 

Alangee

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Alangee!

 

The first Default Notice arrived around the middle of January 2007. The other two accounts DN's followed on in February 2007.

 

Excellent, so 14 Days apply, in which case the Default Notices are invalid on that point alone. Do check them carefully, as Amex usually fails to set them out in the Prescribed way, and may also have messed up the default amounts too.

 

Quote 'This letter serves as notice of cancellation of your account and credit card account agreement with immediate effect. All monies outstanding on the account (including any new transactions or cash advances) are now payable in full.' Unquote.

 

This was the Notice of Cancellation for the Platinum Charge Card (with the Flexi option), but the Notice of Cancellation for the other two accounts say basically the same thing.

 

That's fine, Terminated/Cancelled/Ended/Dead as a Parrot, all mean the same thing. The actual word Terminated isn't essential.

 

Asking for the full balance not otherwise due is likewise the same thing, as it demonstrates that they regard the alleged Agreement as dead in the water.

 

That's the first key part of your Defence in place to combat anything they now try.

 

Call it a little present from CAG...Merry Christmas!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[alangee]

Maybe I should be looking at sending them an SAR. The charges may come to more than they are asking for on their DN's.

 

Alangee

[alangee]

Thanks BRW.

 

I have had Brashers threatening me with all sorts of things back in middle of 2007, but more recently - about six months ago - Village Investigations (Vilcol) have come on the scene. Again I have ignored them.

 

Alangee

[Monty2007]

Hi there, I have been browsing for a while, but this is my first post. The site is fantastic, I only wish I had found it a year ago.

 

Two years ago, Amex informed me that they had been checking my status with the CRA's and that they were suspending my accounts (Gold, Blue & Platinum) - even though I had not missed a payment and everything was up to date. I had even just paid my £200 fee for the Platinum Card. I did have payment agreements with some other creditors, but Amex was clear.

 

Within the next two months - I had stopped paying them by this time - I received default notices for each of the accounts (the Platinum had a 'flexi' account attached, so it came under the Consumer Credit Act 1974).

 

Each of the Default Notices said "To remedy this breach the payment due on your account of £xxx must be received within 14 calendar days from the date of this Default Notice"

 

The amounts quoted on the Default Notices equated to about one months payment.

 

Approximately 5 weeks later I received a Notice of Cancellation, informing me that my they had cancelled my account with immediate effect, and that all monies outstanding on the account are now payable in full.

 

Reading some of the posts on here, it would appear that as I was not given the full 14 days from receipt of the Default Notice, only 14 days from the date it was created, that the DN is defective, and that I would only need to pay the arrears quoted in the DN.

 

Two questions I have are, if it is sold to another Debt Collection Agency what happens then?

 

When do I pay Amex to satisfy the accounts, is it when they take out a CCJ on me?

 

Oh, one last thing, if the amounts in the DN are paid, does that mean that the account is now paid up and Amex would have to remove all information sent to the CRA's?

 

Hi alangee

Which DCA did they pass you to? There is a lot of activity with Amex at the moment, they are in a litigation mood so it is also worth checking out your agreement as to its enforcability. When were the accounts opened?

[alangee]

Hi Monty

 

Village Investigations and Brashers are the only people that have contacted me.

 

The accounts for Gold card was in 1999, I think the Blue was 2001 and the Platinum was 2002.

 

Alangee

[Monty2007]

Hi Monty

 

Village Investigations and Brashers are the only people that have contacted me.

 

The accounts for Gold card was in 1999, I think the Blue was 2001 and the Platinum was 2002.

 

Alangee

 

Hi Alangee

 

Here is my thread:

 

Threat of Legal Action by Brechin Tindal Oatts - The Consumer Forums

 

I also had Brachers on my case and they were about to litigate but I moved to Scotland so they had to pass the accounts back to Amex, wait three months and have recently initiated proceedings up here.

 

Given the age of your accounts my guess would be that they will not have enforcable credit agreements in your case, you should look at getting hold of these to prepare for the next phase. My suggestion would be to do an SAR on Amex (Brachers are sols and are not classed as Data Processors under the Data Protection Act), there is a letter in the template section and you need to send ten pounds and also guaranteed next day delivery. My friend Mrs White is the Data Controller - she get's a request from me every three months.

 

You should then send Brachers a request under CPR 31.16, see:

 

Getting Them To Reveal Their Vitals. Using CPR 31.14 to Your Advantage - The Consumer Forums

[alangee]

I will send a SAR to them asking for everything they have on me.

 

Brachers only contacted me once for each of the accounts, and that was in July 2007. The latest contact I have had was from Village Investigations about six months ago. Amex have said that they will sell my accounts (in the termination notices) but have not sent me any NoA's, so I am only going to deal with Amex themselves, until I get any notification to do otherwise.

 

Alangee

[alangee]

Monty

 

Whats the address for Mrs White?

 

Alangee

[Monty2007]

Monty

 

Whats the address for Mrs White?

 

Alangee

 

Ms Carole White

Executive Customer Relations (Dept 333)

American Express Services Europe Ltd

Amex House

Edward Street

Brighton

BN88 a AH

[alangee]

Thanks Monty. I'll get that sorted.

 

Alangee

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Folks!

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but my advice is to always send any key Documents or Requests to the Company Secretary at their Registered Office.

 

Barclays bank recently managed to slither out of a recent Court Claim because they claimed that a Key Document had not been Served correctly.

 

IOW, someone fighting, say, Barclaycard, had written to Barclaycard at their Nottingham Address, and Barclays (who are Barclay's Trading As), said the Document had not been Served on them.

 

If bankers want to play that little game, beware.

 

To combat that, just send EVERYTHING that matters to their Company Sectary and their Registered Office.

 

If in doubt, go to Companies House, and check their Company Name or Company Number to find their Registered Office.

 

Then send your Letter to the Company Secretary at that Address.

 

That will ALWAYS be the Primary Address for a Company to be Served with Documents.

 

They cannot then wriggle out of that.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Guest dvdriley]

my Amex fdefault notice dsyas 14 days from the date of this letter. Shoud it not be 14 days from the date of service.

[banker_rhymes_with]

my Amex fdefault notice dsyas 14 days from the date of this letter. Shoud it not be 14 days from the date of service.

 

Yes, it's 14 Days from the Date of Service (if after 19/12/2006).

 

Date of Service depends on when they Posted it.

 

If 1st Class, then it's 2 Working Days.

 

If 2nd Class, then it's 4 Working Days.

 

So, KEEP THE ENVELOPES!

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited December 20, 2008 by banker_rhymes_with
Date Correction to 19/12/2006.

[Guest dvdriley]

thats great becuase my letter clearly states 14 dayts from date of letter and they have sent a termination notice

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Dvdriley!

 

thats great becuase my letter clearly states 14 dayts from date of letter and they have sent a termination notice

 

Excellent!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Guest dvdriley]

Hi Banker. I wish to be absolutley cetrain of my facts here:

 

I have received NOTICE OF DEFAULT SUMS UNDER SECTION 86 (E( OF THE CCA 1974. aMOUNT DUE £1800. DEFAULT LETTER DATED 28TH NOV. PAYMENT DUE DATE 1ST DEC.

 

Prior to that I received a DEFAULT NOTICE UNDER SECTION 87(1) OF THE CCA 1974. LETTER DATED 12TH NOV.... MUST BE RECEIVED WITHIN 14 CALENDER DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THIS DN.

 

In between to the above correspondence I received a termination notice. I know yu may have aleardy answered this but are AMEX stuffed here?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Dvdriley!

 

I wish to be absolutely certain of my facts here:

 

I regret all I can do, indeed, all anyone on CAG can do, is discuss the issues and try to point each other to the relevant Legislation to help others to analyse their own situation.

 

I regret I can't offer any certainties, and any advice I give is just that...advice. You need to read any and all CAG Threads that might have a bearing on your own case, and then hopefully arrive at a reasoned strategy with which to defend yourself.

 

I have received NOTICE OF DEFAULT SUMS UNDER SECTION 86 (E( OF THE CCA 1974. aMOUNT DUE £1800. DEFAULT LETTER DATED 28TH NOV. PAYMENT DUE DATE 1ST DEC.

 

That sounds like one of the new Letters all the Creditors are having to send out now whenever they add a default charge to an Account. Why they are still adding default charges to a Terminated Account is not clear. It doesn't make sense.

 

But just because they are doing it does not make it either right or lawful.

 

Prior to that I received a DEFAULT NOTICE UNDER SECTION 87(1) OF THE CCA 1974. LETTER DATED 12TH NOV.... MUST BE RECEIVED WITHIN 14 CALENDER DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THIS DN.

 

The above sounds like an actual Default Notice, because it is specifically mentioning s87(1). The 14 Days from the Date of the Notice should present a problem for them, as explained, because that does not allow you the 14 Clears Days you must be given.

 

In between to the above correspondence I received a termination notice.

 

That should be the key, because it Terminates the alleged Agreement. Unless they have issued you with a valid Default Notice before that Termination, then they should be in some difficulties with regard to asking you for the remaining Balance.

 

I know you may have already answered this but are AMEX stuffed here?

 

All I can do is suggest you go back and re-read what I have said, as I think a reasoned answer should be there.

 

Amex will almost certainly disregard any issues you raise, and will push on to Court. I doubt anything you say or do will stop them, short of Paying them whatever they want.

 

It's highly unlikely there will be an easy answer to this. However, if you do the research and plan how to deal with them, you are then in a better position than many of their Customers who know nothing of either CAG or their Rights.

 

Given all the background facts you have presented, and the issues we have discussed here on CAG, I think it is reasonable to conclude that you should have a robust Defence to anything they may try.

 

Sorry to sound negative, but you must appreciate that all you can take away from CAG is information and advice. The bottom line is that you have to decide how best to handle Amex. If and when this ends up in Court, you'll be the one who must present your case and draw the Court's attention to the issues that really matter.

 

Between now and then, many here on CAG will do all that they can to help you prepare for this. But you must help yourself, it would not be wise to rely on just one person's advice.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Guest dvdriley]

appreciate you time and comments

[Guest dvdriley]

HAPPY NEW YEAR BANKER and thanks for all your help in 2008.

 

I have received a DN from Bank of Scotland in realation to a loan. The DN is dated 13th November and it requests payment before 27/11/8. Thats 14 days but no allowance for postage etc. I didnt keep the envelope so i dont know what date i received it but it certainly gave no time to respond

 

Is it invalid. It has now been passed for Blair. Any views

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Dvdriley!

 

Happy New Year to you.

 

The Default Notice has not allowed for Postage.

 

13th November 2008 was a Thursday.

 

If you assume 1st Class Postage, and assume they Posted it on the Day that they issued it, then Date of Service would be 2 Working Days from the Thursday...1 = Friday, 2 = Monday 17th.

 

Date of Service is therefore Monday 17th November 2008.

 

14 Clear Days from then should give you a Deadline of Monday 1st December 2008.

 

They gave you a Deadline of Thursday 27th November 2008, so short changed you on the Statutory Time allowed to remedy the alleged default by 4 Days.

 

They gave you 10 Days instead of 14.

 

The Default Notice is therefore invalid on that basis alone.

 

Next step is to examine the way they have set the Notice out, to see if they have cocked up in other ways by not setting it out in the Prescribed way.

 

Last issue on the Default Notice, have they stated the Arrears correctly? Did they add any Penalty Charges to the Loan? Any mis-sold PPI?

 

Talking of PPI...did they add that, and was the alleged Agreement correct in terms of s18 Multiple Agreements? For example, did the Loan include PPI, or did the Loan encompass different types of Credit, such as Restricted Use Credit to Pay off, say, an Overdraft, plus an additional Unrestricted Use Credit amount to give you money to do with as you wished.

 

Maybe start your own Thread in the BOS Section and Post a Link here. Then the Loan, Agreement and Termination etc can be discussed.

 

Talking of Termination...have they Terminated the alleged Agreement yet? If not, keep the Default Notice safe somewhere, and keep quiet until they do...cross everything that they do! Once they Terminate then, that's it, they've blown their Rights to enjoy the benefits of s87.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[alangee]

I SARed Amex on two accounts (Gold & Blue CC), and got back an application for the Blue, and they also said that they could not find either an agreement or an application for the Gold. Wrote back asking them to send a copy of agreement for Blue, because the application is, after all, just an application.

 

Got a letter back today offering me around a 50% full and final offer on each account.

 

Alan

[shakespeare62]

The change took place on 19/12/2006, so you could be OK if your Default Notices were dated after then.

 

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Although the secondary legislation (ie the Regulations) was not changed until 19 December 2006 as BRW correctly stated, the Act was amended with effect from 1 October 2006. Since section 14(1) of the Act specifically increased the period of a Default Notice from 7 to 14 days, I would argue that takes precedence.

 

Specifically :-

 

The Consumer Credit Act 2006 (Commencement No. 1) Order 2006 Schedule 2 records the coming into effect of Consumer Credit Act 2006 section 14(1) as 1 October 2006

 

A link to the the above order is here (just scroll down to Schedule 2) :-

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/uksi_20061508_en.pdf

Edited February 28, 2009 by shakespeare62