Rejection---Urgent Advice please

[scaniaman]

I am about to reject a troublesome car and need proper advice.
Firstly, is this done under SOGA or CPUTR2008.
Are there any template letters available to help me write rejection letter.
I intended to write (rec del) asking the dealer one last time to resolve problem, or give 14days to collect and refund money. Also copy letter to finance company.
Since i don't trust dealer, when should i receive payment--won't let car go on dealers promise of payment in xxxdays.

[supasnooper]

You are complaining under SOGA.

In your letter, list the points of rejection and then state you wish for a refund.

Stipulate a time and date you require the refund should be made by ( eg, by 16:00 hrs on xx/xx/2009 )

[Conniff]

When was the car purchased??
What problems are you having with it??

[heliosuk]

More so, what car is it and to reitterate Conniff suggestion what is the problem.

[scaniaman]

Car is Citroen Picasso Diesel, Reg 3/08 but not used until 11/08. Problem is high fuel consumption as compared to last car (2005picasso diesel) 5-7mpg worse, but varies widely.
Supasnooper, please explain why claim through SOGA and not CPUTR 2008. The latter encompasses "misleading" to mean information "ommitted" as well as false information given.

[Conniff]

So your only reason for rejection is that it does not do as many miles per gallon as your last car?

You purchased it in March 2008 but did not use it until November 2008 - is that correct ?

What 'misleading' information were you given ?

What information was 'omitted' ?

[scaniaman]

Car was one of a large batch registered but not sold at time. Dealers do this from time to time to get manufacturers bonus. Not quite sure what you mean by ONLY reason for rejection. People don't buy small diesels to regularly get fuel returns of under 50mpg. This car has only twice since 1/11/2008 returned over 50mpg. My previous Picasso only once returned under 50mpg in 3-1/2 years running, and that was because it was thrashed during an emergency journey, then used on very short runs.There were also brake failure problems at one stage.
As an oap fuel economy is very important to me.

[Conniff]

Ok, so you purchased the car in November 2008 ?

Were you told by the dealer how many miles per gallon you 'would' get from it ?

How do the figures tally with those given by Citroen ?

I am trying to get the full picture so I can help.

[scaniaman]

Yes, 1/11/2008, 7miles on clock. Salesman did not quote mpg figures as he was told that this purchase was a direct replacement for 2005 Picasso.
The official figures for Picasso diesels (110bhp) i have met regularly with old car, but not this one. Citroen Uk say this car is "within their perammeters" but refuse to inform me what exactly these perammeters are!!! One of the reasons for buying like for like was the good fuel economy. The 5-7mpg difference is the difference between the car being acceptable and not.ie the difference between mid 40's and low 50's.
Still can't figure which is best way to move---SOGA or CPUTR.

[Conniff]

The official published figures are (mpg):

Urban cycle 29.7
Extra Urban 47.1
Combined 38.7

So they are within the parameters.

The length of time you have had the car means you will have accepted it. You only have a 'reasonable' time to reject and though reasonable is not defined, 8 months will be outside what is deemed reasonable.

If the car is not of 'satisfactory' quality, you should have rejected it sooner. I fear that the time and reason are against you and any refund, should you get one, will be greatly reduced.

This would be under SOGA 1979.

[scaniaman]

Your figures must be for PETROL car. Official figures are 44 64 and ave. 55mpg. Did not make complaint regards fuel until car had exceeded 3000 mls. as it states in handbook that engine will not reach full potential until it has covered at least this milage.
The reason i believe i can have them under CPUTR is sec6 Misrepresentation. According to Citroen Uk there would have been some technical changes to engine and certainly to exhaust, which may result in higher fuel consumption. Salesman did NOT mention this. These engines are highly technical and computer controlled.
I have a gut feeling that what happened was UK Govt. dictated that all diesel refined from summer 2008 had to have 5% biodiesel added to it. Citroen did not reamap these engines to cope with this new mixture. Biodiesel at 30% inclusion is wreaking havoc on some new engines, and there have been massive problems with HGV's run on this veggie oil additive.
PS. Spellchecker gone to kip!!!!

[Conniff]

Is a C3 or C4 and what is the cc ?

[scaniaman]

Xsara Picasso (original type) 1.6hdi 110bhp.

[Conniff]

Ok - I got those figures.

Those figures are done in accordance with EU regulations on a rolling road to simulate driving and by technicians. You will never be able obtain these figures on the road. This does not mean the car has been misdescribed, it means the method at which they are tested is wrong.
They are done to a standard so that they can be repeated identically for every car, they have no meaning to actual driving.
Even just opening a window can drop the mpg.

You can try, but I fear you will have no luck rejecting the car and certainly won't get all your money back as you have had enjoyment from the car and any court will take that into consideration.

You must do the rejection in writing and should send it recorded delivery.

[scaniaman]

Thank you all very much indeed for your replies. Had letter written last evening but left SOGA OR CPUTR blank pending advice. Have now completed letter and have decided to give the CPUTR route a go. For anyone interested to know the sort of pond life i am up against, log on to arnold clark-blagger.com and also google arnold clark complaints. This site also has info under garage services, and vehicle manufacturersetc etc.

[heliosuk]

I don't suppose you have asked the dealership to update the engine management software have you? With extended service intervals, it's possible that there have been updates since the issue was investigated. Also, there are set procedures set by manufactuers to measure consumption, have you asked for this to be done, requested help from Citroen technical etc. I've dealt with many of these MPG issues in the past and frankly have never ever found fault with the vehicle. With respect, I think given the time you've had it you're on a hiding to nothing in relation to rejecting it.

It helps the dealer, manufactuer and yourself to be pragmatic about it. As an ex service manager, a customer threatening this and that got them nowhere. However, one who asked for a reasonable logical explanation got help over and beyond what is usually called for.

I would think by your name you have a close affiliation to trucks so I can understand your concerns with fuel consumption!!

If I can help with finding out if anything is actually wrong with the car please don't hesitate to contact me.

[scaniaman]

Thanks Heliosuk. When i first complained they Supposedly updated the ecu with latest software. Have asked ****roen for help, and how someone in Slough can come on the phone and tell me there is nothing wrong with my car simply by what a computer says is beyond me. There is a diesel expert on Citroen Picasso Owners Club site who suggested all the things to try and the local dealer didn't want to know. I am dealing with a branch of Arnold Clark here--says it all. Why can't anyone just explain in plain english why it is that for 3+ yrs i regularly got over 50mpg from my previous Picasso and i can't get this return from a new car. The people i am dealing with rely soley on what a computer tells them and can't / won't investigate any further as ****roen won't pay them under warranty.
Your bit about a customer threatening them---well, there's a story, which i can't divulge at this point.
I will take them to court if i have to as i have a pretty fair record of winning court actions, especially against large companies. As stated many times before, ****roen tell me that the car is within their parameters, but refuse to inform what these parameters are. Being an ex service manager you will know that no one buys a small diesel to accept less than 50mpg.
I may not be a brain surgeon, but im'e not as daft as buy a duplicate car if the first one did not tick all the right boxes. Frankly, i don't really know how/ what to tell you for you be able to advise me on what could be wrong. The sellers would dearly love to blame the problem on driving technique, but can't answer how i previously got acceptable results, or why the figures from this car are so erratic. Worst mpg =43 best (once) 55mpg. I am ill at ease speaking to them, and they me, because they know i had my own garage (mostly hgv work, but some cars), I, because i was out of the game due to a serious industrial accident, before all this electronic stuff came in. If you think you can help, i would be most greatfull.

[Conniff]

How are you measuring the mpg, is it by onboard computer or are you filling to the neck and seeing wht you get from a tankful?

I think Citroen use particulate filters, these can block and lower the mpg.

Are you hoping for a full refund scaniaman ?

[heliosuk]

As I thought Scania, an HGV man so when it comes to fuel consumption, it's not a good idea to cross swords with guys like you!! Unfortunately, you and me are a garages worst nightmare but I like to think there are some good ones, and there are if you can find them

Is there anyway you can contact me outside of the forum? I'm not interested in the legalities really but as you bought a second one you must like them so to reject the car is a bit extreme and I think a bit of a sticky wicket.

I have a few ideas to discuss.

[heliosuk]

DPFS has been in use for a while and will most probably be on Scanias car, however, with such a change in the emission control system, Citroen will have to have submitted this for another emissions test and this data will have to be published.

We need the model and year, engine no etc to be sure that the figures quoted match up. However again, most cars such as this should be averaging at least 55 mpg. I think it's also reasonable to assume that Scanias driving habits haven't changed though it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

It's important that in order to identify the problem that we go to basics, compare like with like and then home in on the possible reasons hopefully identifying the root cause of the issue and getting Scanias problem fixed.