Estimated Bills caused large debt

[conar686]

A friend of mine as just been told by his electricity supplier that they owe £900 accumulated over the last 7 yrs. As his meter has never been read in this time their bills are all estimated by the supplier.

This seems a bit unfair, does anyone know if owt can be done?

[conar686]

*Bump*

[2Grumpy]

Look at the other threads around here - they can only bill for 1 years usage now.

Get your friend to complain. If they argue, get them to call energywatch on 08459 06 07 08

[Trojan1401]

By law they must physically read a meter every 2 years. May have changed though re above thread. Definately contact energy watch though.

[installspark]

That is true unless the supplier can prove the following:

Code of Practice for Accurate Bills

Under what circumstances will suppliers agree not to charge customers for
energy used?
If the supplier is at fault, and the customer has not received a bill for more than two
years, then from 1st July 2006 any outstanding amounts that relate to energy consumed
more than two years ago will be cancelled. From July 2007, this will reduce to one year.
For customers on credit payment arrangements, suppliers will not be at fault where they
can demonstrate that they have taken all of the following four actions:
a) Attempted to read the meter at the customer’s premises within the last 24
months within the first year. From July 2007 onwards this will reduce to
within the last 15 months.
b) Provided opportunities for the customer to submit their own meter reading at
any time on any day
c) Ensured that it was clear on the bill that energy consumption had been
estimated
d) Used a system to ensure estimated bills relate to foreseeable actual
consumption (that is, the estimate was based on previous history, where
available, or on average energy consumption for a similar type of property)
Where the customer pays by direct debit, in addition to a) and b) above, the supplier
must be able to demonstrate that it has taken all of the following actions:
. the customer has been correctly set up on their billing system by both taking
deductions from the customer’s bank account and sending statements to them
. within the last 24 months in the first year reducing to 15 months for year 2
onwards it has re-assessed the customer’s direct debit payment to ensure that
the payments are sufficient to meet (either the actual or a reasonable estimate
of) the customer’s energy usage.

Now to play Devil's Advocate......

Were any bills received in this period, and if not why was this not questioned?

If bills were received but estimated, were customer's own reads provided?

Essentially this comes down to dual responsibility - the supplier is responsible for billing the account, the customer is responsible to check the suppliers bills are accurate.

[mree]

As long as the bills clearly state that they're estimated, and the meter reading agency the supplier uses have a record of attempting to call at the property, I'm afraid there's not a lot you can do in this case! Your best bet is to follow their complaints procedure first of all, they won't write the bill off but they may reduce it as a gesture of goodwill. Going straight to Energywatch in this instance would only cost you time, as they will want to give the supplier's complaints procedure a chance to resolve the matter before they get involved (although DO go to Energywatch if they won't budge).

I'm afraid the 1 year billing rule wouldn't apply in this case - that rule is designed to protect customers who haven't been billed AT ALL for a long period, not those who've been billed incorrectly.

[conar686]

Thanks, one & all, for the advice. I'll get my friend to ask for heir complaints procedure and take it from there.

[whitbywitchuk]

We just had our first bill from NPower after 2 years of ringing and asking why they werent coming. Energywatch actually got them to come and fit a new meter because it was a key meter and overcharging. Is there any way we can get the old info given to energywatch so that we can take NPower to court for not billing us? Maybe we might get some compensation as now we are in a state with outstanding balances due to never knowing what we owed.
But they say they sent the bills and statements for the key meter out and we never have had them, how do you prove something like that? The second meter is a normal meter, but we could compare the prices to the £30 per week ones we got on the key meter, its all a big mess.
cheers

Whittersx

[lookinforinfo]

I thought that the meter had to be read at least once within a two year period.

[Clare_L]

It does have to be read at least once in 2 years, but if the supplier can prove they attempted to read the meter in that time, then the billing code does not apply.

[verycatchy7939]

i work for a utility company in it back office and have done so for 28 years.
your electric meter has to be read once every 8 quarters, gas once every 4 quarters.

If the company have returned to you 12 month's worth of estimates they are bound by OFGEM to apply compensation units to the account which reflect total compensation for thew whole of the non read period.This is under licence condition 5 and applied via Of gem's late billed policy.

Be warned they will throw D10's (data flow) at you - that is a record of no access of the meter reader

But stick to your guns you have the weight of law on side

If you have any further questions on utility's gas and electric please post them on here and i will answer.

I have experience from billing process to collection process and right of entry warrants

[Rio2London]

Hi, after living 3.5 yers in a flat and receiving only estimated bills I was presented with a final charge of £3.100.

When the first call was received my wife called Powergen (now e.on) and asked them to check the meter as we could not find it. I now know that it was outside on the hall with public access.

E.on did check the meter regularly but never actually charged us based on the readings, they have estimated for more than 3 years.

Now they are recalculating the charges to reflect the actual prices, so the 3,100 has gone down to 2,500. Still a massive amount.

We are 2 people working full-time and adding 2,500 to the 1,000 we were charged over the period we get a total of £3.500 for 3.5 years that sounds more than others with similar life style and appliances pay.

Ultimately I was never warned of my consumption and this has lead to consuming more than I actually would/could or the inability to check for a faulty or misconfigured appliance or meter.

I would be very grateful if I could get an opinion of whether e.on has to write down some of the debt or not. I am not refusing to pay and I take responsibility for not having checked the estimated vs. actuals while I was there. I understand that not knowing is not a reason. But surely they have a share of responsibility for knowing and not telling, this is effectively the same as not showing up to read the meter for 3.5 years!

Cheers

[verycatchy7939]

if powergen have not used any of the reads supplied by the data collector for that past 3 years you must ask them to consider applying latebilling/back-billing policy to your account. IT means that if they have been not using information presented to them they must under OFGEM guidelines write off all but one year consumption and offer to spread the totally amount left owing over a 3 year period.
But you have to prove this ask E.on subject access request to all notes, bills and data flows that are kept on there system.All so ask them to supply you with copies of all data flows numbered d10, d4. d86 and d146.

from d86 you can get your start read.
D10 is your normal cyclic mete reading
d4 is list of failed to read meter reading
d146 is meter change details.

Get this and compare all your d10 to there bills they have provided if they not used the readings u have got them and can force implementation of the back billing policy. It takes awhile to do this but utility d10's are easy to read, once you have this info pm me thought this forum and i will tell how to read the d10.
Down let them put you off just keep pushing till you get ya data

[Clare_L]

Did they say why they didnt use the readings out of interest? They have already admitted that the meter had been read but readings ignored? If the DC has been reading the meter but the readings have been thrown out and not used then this will come under Operational Loss which is part of the billing code, ie the utility company have got you into debt unnecessarily when the readings had already been supplied. As Verycatchy has already stated, in this case they will only be able to backbill one year. Did you ever call them and provide your own readings at any point by any chance?

[Rio2London]

Hi Verycatchy and Clare, thanks for replying!

I have been escalated to the manager's manager now as e.on revised the bill based on the actual readings and offered me a 15% discount for full payment instead of 36 installments.

I honestly think they have offered me nothing because recalculating based on the actuals is the least they could do and they are likely to loose 15% or more whenever they sell the 36-month-installment debt to a debt collection firm.

I don't want to be unreasonable and I would like to settle, but if OFGEM has defined that in this kind of dispute the border line of responsibility to the customer stops at 12 months then that's what e.on should be offering.

We have never read the meter while we were in the property. The first and last readings were made by the lettings agency. My wife called e.on when our first bill arrivecd and asked them to check the meter because we could not find it (I now know that it was behind a door on the hallway that required a key that anyone can get on a hardware shop). In any case e.on agreed to make the readings and they actually did it regularly. The reason they never charged me based oin the readings is because there was a change on the meter right before I moved in and the serial number didn't match the number in their system.

I don't think e.on did it on purpose, and I certainly didn't get into this mess on purpose either, but it is staggering to see that they will not offer what has been defined by ofgen. I've raised the backbilling regulation with them and they said it didn't apply to me and that I would loose any appeal.

The manager helping me was very friendly and nice and perhaps she just can't offer me anything better but this does not mean I have to accept it.

Thanks a million for your inputs and I will post whatever happens. I will request all the data that verycatchy suggested but they have already admitted their fault on not using the readings.

Take care

[Clare_L]

Hi

Unfortunately, Eon are right, the billing code would not apply in this case then. If the distribution did not notify Eon of the change of meter, they would not have known so could only send estimated bills based on the previous occupants consumption. Did they ever write and ask you for meter readings? Normally they will send a letter if the bill has been estimated for a long period of time.

[verycatchy7939]

afraid e.on are hiding behind there data collectors.But they have duty to provide you with an accurate bill , which they have not done.So i would still do the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for your records and still write and complain and if they still stay the same take them to the electricity supply ombudsman for a ruling.The energy companies are scared stiff of the ombudsman because each time they use it they have to pay a fee.
At the end of the day it's e.on's fault because they appoint there data collectors and there is a case in law " Newcastle borough council v npower 2003" that ruled that the energy companies are responsible for all 3 party actions weather it be there data collectors or debt agents( Licence condition 19)
So push it and use. this ruling and they have to appliy back billing policy to the account.
the key to all this though is the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and how you d10's and d4's look in comaprision to your bills.Keep going pay them an agreed amount and see where this goes.

[mwacuk]

Nah I hear the whole accounts been estimated for years sob story all the time. I would have given you 12 months to pay by dd, nothing else, and nor would my manager. And im sure ofgem will agree. Ive never come across an meter that has a larger than 12 month gap between D4s (failed reader attempts) Yes all bills clearly state they are estimated so if you couldnt/refused to provide access to meter readers and never bothered reading your meter youonly have yourself to blame. If a meter isnt read for 18 months we at ******* will try to contact you which again has obviously failed here.

One useful point i have for you is to make sure your catch-up bill is spread out if your prices have increased at any point during the period that has been estimated.

Cheers