ORANGE default

[roger1]

Hello
My first post here.
I was wondering if someone can help me. I had a contract with Orange that expired in October. I rang up to notify them that I wished to end the contract after the 12months had expired.
So that I could keep my mobile No and rather than lose me as a customer they offered to keep me as a pay-as-you go customer. Once my sim had arrived I could move over to the other service seamlessly. Well come december no sign of sim.
I had effectivlely stopped using my mobile at the end of the 12 months and put the phone away in a drawer awaiting the new sim.
Then I started getting bills coming through for November & December and I couldn't understand why. As far as I was concerned the contract had finished and no further calls were made on the phone period. In janurary after recieving a call from Orange that if the oustanding debt was not settled they would pass the matter onto a Debt collection service. I ofcourse was still awaiting the Pay-as-you go sim. Since it hadn't been sent recorded, there was no way of knowing if it had ever been despatched. Orange stated they "sent" one to the billing address, and that was their best endeavour.
Eventually I got sick of Orange's demand to pay for the months of Nov & Dec and terminated all dealings with the company. As far as they were concerned the contract was ongoing till I activated the pay-as-you go sim - which NEVER arrived.
I am left with a default and the debt company hounding me. I am tempted to settle with them in the hope of claiming this off Orange later through small claims. Is this a good idea?
I didn't want to settle with Orange in the first place because this would have been an admission of guilt that I was deliberatley
not paying.

All correspondence so far has been verbal other than the Bills for Nov & Dec. No written notification was given by Orange that the original contract would roll-on until the new sim was activated, nor was it explained to me verbally.
Is this how all monthly contracts switch to pay-as-you go ones?
Are the service providers not responsible for ensuring the switch from one service to another?
Is Orange's behaviour right?

I would appreciate any guidance/advice.

Thanks

[dx100uk]

write to them,
tell them to provide written evidence that PROVES the sim arrived with you or evidence that they took resonable steps to ensure it did.

if they cannot [which we all know they can't] contract ended after 12months because you cancelled and changed scheme [at their invitation!].

shame its not in writing anywhere. but stick to your guns, you wanted to cancel, they invited you to goto PPU.
make them prove it!

dx100uk

[buzby]

Noo! Sorry, the provision of a PAYG SIM was simply a goodwill gesture, and worth around £3 - which is the price you would pay to purchase one.

How did you give Orange notice of your intention to end your contract? Hopefully in writing? In which case this is what you use to prove that you have agreed to close the agreement. Irrespective of whether Orange provided you with a replacement SIM card, this does not provide closure on the contract, which can happen only when (1) You give due notice, (2) Request a PAC code. This initiates closure of your account and reserves your number. This is the only way to ensure an account is ceased without written backup, as the PAC code cannot be issued until the network has prepared the number and the account closed.

If you simply told them on a voice call you wanted to end and they offered a PAYG SIM card, this is NOT enough to end the contract. YOu would have had to call back and query the non delivery of the card, and from their point of view, they've not done anything wrong.

There is no point complaining to CISAS as the problem here is to do with contract termination which was not been formally completed.

If there has been no traffic on your account, since you switched it off, Orange may - as a goodwill gesture - note this and agree to rebate the line, but this will be very much at their discretion.

[roger1]

Thanks all for your kind response.

Although thermometer's & Dx100uk's posts were encouraging, I fear Buzby is closest to the limited options I have.

I was going to put my request to end my contract in writing but didn't as a new offer was put on the table. As I haven't had a mobile contract before I was completely unaware of the perils of ending the contract without written notice. A short sharp lesson learnt indeed.
So for the record my only 'notice to cancel' to Orange was verbal.

I have tried CISAS who were very non-comittal so I gave that one up.

There hasn't been any traffic whatsoever on my account, but unfortunatley Orange haven't been very charitable and given no rebate on the line.

In light of this , do you folks think it's a lost cause?
and I should just settle with the debt company?
Also as a side note do Debt collectors really give a fig whether you are in dispute with their client, afterall they just want their money.

thanks

[buzby]

Ah - it's my contempt for the OTELOs and CISASs of this world that make soothing noises and leave you to pick up the pieces, often adding delays that put you in an even worse position! CISAS is there to make complainants feel good/better, nothing more. As to the scenario just described, if the OP doesn't play by the rules laid down, just what can CISAS do?

Having used many of these intermedieries - without I may say much success - it has only been when I adoped a 'look after No 1' approach and refuse to take the bulls*1t. It's a little more work, but as consumers, were worms, and have to make sure we're not stamped on. IF we foul up, then apologise and seek a resolution - involving 3rd parties rarely does this.

[buzby]

1) There's no such thing as a lost cause. Simply an opportunity to negotiate.
2) You didn't provide the notice, but hey how were you to know? You expected they would follow on with your instructions, but they didn't deliver.

If I was in your situation, I'd WRITE to Orange, and advise any DCA that your account is in dispiute and refer tha matter back to their client.

In your letter, explain in a reasonable way that you terminated your contract verbally and expected the promised SIM card to be sent. Apologise for not being pro-active in chasing hte matter, but as you were not using the phone, it slipped from your mind. The lack of call usage on your account will confirm you didn't use the phone, and you hope Orange will review the issue and explain WHY the promised SIM card did not arrive, or why they did not query its non-connection or number transfer (which only they can do).

You would very much like to stay a customer of the network, but this matter is causing much ill feeling, and if they do not change their position, you will have to request a transcript (under a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)) of your telephone call of XX/XX/XX where you explained you wanted to cease the service.

It'll be easier for them to have you happy as a PAYG user, than a PITA who badmouths them for treating you shabbily. (See where I'm coming from now?)

[roger1]

Good stuff chaps much appreciated.

I guess persistence is the name of the game.

My only immediate worry is the DCA are threatening Legal action over the 60 quid that is in dispute, would they really take me to court over such a small sum ?

[buzby]

Advise the DCA that the account is in dispute - at the same time enter into correspondence with the network with a view to reaching a resolution. They probably will not resort to court action, but your biggest problem will be the trashing of your credit rating which has probably happened already. Ensure that in all negotiations with the network, you ensure all adverse data is also removed.

[Goffer]

Hi

My daughter has found herself in a similar position with Orange. She verbally gave a months notice to terminate the contract and asked that the number be transferred to PAYG which Orange agreed to do.

She expected to receive the sim card within the period of the months notice but it was actually six weeks before the card arrived. Orange attempted to bill for another complete month because of this. Payment was refused as she had cancelled the direct debit and they are now demanding a partial months payment of £13. This has now been passed to NCO for collection as my daughter has refused to pay it until an explanation is forthcoming.

I would argue that although notice to terminate the contract was given verbally it was accepted by Orange and therefore valid. Surely the provision of a PAYG sim card is a separate service and not relevant to the cancellation of the contract. I would have thought that a month is ample time for orange to transfer the number to a PAYG sim card and that it is unreasonable to expect customers to continue to pay monthly rental past the cancellation date because they can't manage to transfer the number to PAYG in a reasonable time.

She has written to both Orange adn NCO explaining her position and asking for an explanation but has not received a reply.

Although this is all over just £13 I'm worried about her credit rating so any advice gratefully received.

[MrShed]

The question to my mind in both cases, is was it made conditional to the receipt of the SIM card that your contract was cancelled? IE did the guy say "OK once you receive and activate your PAYG sim card we will terminate your contract" or did they say "ok we will finish your contract on such-and-such date, and send you out a PAYG sim card"? This is pivotal IMO.

[buzby]

There is no inherent obligation or duty on orange to provide the cancellation of service in tandem with any other action. Whilst you may feel they 'accepted' your cancellation, the contract will stipulate how any termination is given - if this is to be in writing, it removes all ambiguity and prevents the situation you find yourself in. If transferring to a different network, requesting a PAC code effectively terminates the contract, however a PAC code cannot be requested for an inter-network transfer. The rights of the customer will be what the contract states, switching to PAYG is to Orange's advantage, but not conditional to the termination.

[MrShed]

But, if both parties agree to terminate on a verbal basis, or if both parties agree to terminate once a PAYG sim is received, surely this termination is valid, irrespective of what the contract states? In which case, I would still say that the wording of the conversation is pivotal.

[buzby]

The contract will always take precedence, as it states that it cannot be modified unless in writing, so - as the requirement to terminate in writing is paramount, it MAY be waived if some other action is taken, but the OP remains at the mercy of the original contract if it all goes sour for some reason. How many of us have had thought something was 'sorted' on the phone, only to find the actions NOT carried out as expected and the agent denying any contact? This is such a common ocurrence that it should serve as a warning to all.

Provision of a PAYG SIM is not a contractural issue - they are 10 a penny, and have no inherent value until topped up. Supplying this is a goodwill gesture for the network and nothing more, and this holds true for all networks, not just Orange.

[MrShed]

Under contract law, if the parties involved in the contract BOTH agree to changes to the contract, it is effectively changed. Or indeed if both parties agree to terminate the contract. Therefore, I still say that verbal notice, if ACCEPTED by the other party, is absolutely fine. As I say, it depends upon their wording. And it would depend upon them being able to prove the conversation occurred! With a Subject Access Request, that shouldn't be too difficult however.

[buzby]

If the original contrract states it is binding, and may not be modified without the agreement of several directors in writing, and possibly may not be modified by any other person - that's an end to it. The agent is not empowered to vary the terms, so it doesn;t matter if both parties agreee. It is SO easy to ensure call centre staff are not empowered to make contractural changes, it would be foolish to believe a quick phone call can resolve these issues as you appear to believe. As for a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) - this only provides information that exists on the system... if someone tells me there is no record of a conversation on the screen, it most certainly isn't going to turn up in a Subject Access Request and ruin their argument!

[MrShed]

Fair comment buzby, I stand corrected

And wow, I didnt know the forums automatically changed the letters Subject Access Request to something else!!!