Orange failure to repay DD Error

[emma81]

Has anyone had this happen to them....Orange have failed to repay a direct debit back into my account that they took twice, after the first rejected (oops my fault) I had paid by card over the phone, they then debited my account yet again so paying it twice, they took it themselves to pay this off onto Julys bill not due yet!! I rang and said i want it refunded. 3-5 days have passed and no refund. I completed a DD indeminity form with Halifax who put the amount straight back onto my account and they will get it back from orange. Needless to say I have sent a rather large complaint letter.

Does anyone get the feeling out there that no matter who it is, ie Orange, Sky, Talk Talk, Anywhere that uses a call centre nobody knows what the hell they are doing!! And they are not capable of dealing with a query you always have to be transfered elsewhere. Your thoughts on this I would love hear and I hope I am not alone!!

[BankFodder]

I'm sure that you aren't alone. Staff training of many call centre staff seems to be very poor and I often get the impression that they transfer you away simply to get rid of the problem onto some one else.

I make all of these kinds of calls using Skype and I record everything with CallBurner just in case there is such a problem that I need to demonstrate it to someone in a complaint.
If you do suddenly produce a recording they don't like it and they protest that they hadn't been warned etc - but they always give way under the pressure of that kind of evidence.

[emma81]

Is Skype the online phone? Is there a program that you would use to burn, or is it pop in a disc and burn the call straight on disc?

[skbuncks]

Originally Posted by emma81

Is Skype the online phone? Is there a program that you would use to burn, or is it pop in a disc and burn the call straight on disc?

Scroll to top of page an click on the red chilli


skb

[OrangePrimate]

sorry, straight onto the defensive on this one!!

Emma, your first direct debit bounced, so the payment given to Orange was clawed back by the bank, leaving you with an amount owing. you admit this was your fault and not the fault of Orange. You then paid by Card over the phone. now, i am sure by the time all this came to light it was a few weks down the line and your next bill had already been produced.
This is the important bit! it takes 5 days to cancel a Direct debit and as an automated system, it may sometimes take longer depending on the Bank involved. So this is why the debit attempt went through a second time and you effectively paid twice. I will bet you anything that the amount taken was exactly the same amount as the first debit, so not in fact paying July's not yet due bill as you claim.
To stop the 2nd attempt at the direct debit payment you should have informed your bank that you had paid the bill, that would have then stopped the direct debit being paid for that month.

When you request a refund, you would have been given the choice of how you got that overpayment refund, back onto your credit card (5 days) or back into your bank account (5-7 days) the delay in the refund is to ensure that the money is actually debited from your bank/card account and paid into Orange's account before it is refunded, as it is possible that an amount being refunded is also 'bounced' again by the bank!

in your not allowing sufficient time for the refund to go through and doing the indemnity claim will now mean you get that amount refunded twice! this will put you well in arrears and probably a suspension of service!

I am sure all this will be pointed in response to your 'complaint' letter, but they may put it more politely!

in response to your comments and also to yours bankfodder, The majority of call centre staff DO know what they are doing, we DO know how to do it, we DO know the systems and time constraints involved, it is often the caller not liking what they are advised that can result in unhappy campers!
And as we are not allowed to actually spell it out where the problem lies/what has contributed to the issue (i.e the customers actions!) we take the brunt of it.
But of course thats why we are there, too stupid and useless to do anything else! (tongue in cheeck sarcasm, not being nasty or confrontational honestly!)

[emma81]

Thanks for your comments Orange Primate.

The initial Direct Debit did bounce correct, this wasnt allowed through by the bank. I rang the Orange 2 days later to pay the amount by card over the phone and duly did this. The agent that processed the payment advised to cancel the DD on the account, and then re set it up in a weeks time. I cancelled the DD using my online bank account. During this time I recieved a letter from Orange advising payment had not been recieved they would automatically retry within 10days! Now the Agent did not mention they would try again at the time of making my payment over the phone. Quoting your line "The majority of call centre staff DO know what they are doing, we DO know how to do it, we DO know the systems and time constraints involved" I would have to disagree. Anyway my direct debit was cancelled as far as i am concerned, and we rang back a few days later to re set up the DD..in the meantime yep you guessed it the same amount was deducted from my account yet again! When I rang up they had transfered this onto july's bill...without consulting me at anytime, when it is not due until 23rd July. On ringing orange they advised there was No active DD on my account! I had previously provided these details to another agent, I was now asked if I wanted to set a further DD up as the last one was cancelled! I said how can I set one up then cancel it within 24hours! it isnt humanly possible TO set up a dd and cancel it within 24hours. To date no refund has gone back onto my account from Orange, So I believe I did the right thing and complete the indemnity form at Halifax who put this back on account instantly. Orange, as are Powergen are very Incompetent at what they do and how they do it. Your Quote "But of course thats why we are there, too stupid and useless to do anything else" How right you are!

[emma81]

As you can see Orange Primate didnt get the full story therefore has made a complete idiot out of him/herself i suggest before you go on the defensive you get the facts straight, everything was done accordingly to what Orange suggested i do and i am totally in the right to get the money back from Orange it is now day 11 since this started and guess what still nothing from Orange so when you say i will get it back twice, i suggest you eat your words as i still have had nothing back despite them saying it takes 3-5 working days, i would not be in arrears with Orange as i paid June's bill on time and have had the bill for July which is due on the 23/07, so i'd love for you to tell me where the arrears come from when correct me if im wrong but the 23rd July hasnt been yet! Also if by chance (ha ha) Orange did credit me with the money i am owed i would send the money straight back by either calling them or sending a cheque there are some honest people in the world me being one, I've been an Orange customer for 6 years, i have never once denied the fact it was my fault initially but as you stated i probably didnt realise until a few weeks later, thats rubbish, my bill was due on the 25/06 i paid by debit card on the 26/06 it was them that are in the wrong....! I know what call centre staff are like i used to be one, not taring them all with the same brush i was being passed from pillar to post when all i wanted was money than had wrongfully taken off me, i also worked for a bank for 6 years so i know all about direct debits i know that it doesnt take 5-7 days as you state to cancel a DD it takes max of 3 working days (something else you were wrong about)!

The fact is Orange took money without my permission and i wanted it back, my balance with Orange is nill at the mo so despite me asking for a refund they obviously have taken it off this months July's bill!

Applogies if i sound a little annoyed but i put this thread on here to get some helpfull advise and all i got was a bit of abuse before all the facts were known!

[Human Writes]

Why not try a chargeback via your card issuer and get them to reclaim the money directly or an indemnity claim for your Direct Debit amount for that month? One or the other should result in a swift refund direct from your bank rather than waiting for Orange to sort it.

[OrangePrimate]

Oh Dear!
Emma, you asked for thoughts on what you had gone through, and as working on the inside so to speak, i attempted to explain to you and others that may be interested, on how the 'mix up' could have occured leaving you in the situation you were in. I dont feel that my post abused you in any way and as for 'facts' and 'getting the full story', no you are correct.
i stated that direct debits, through an automated system take about 5 days to fully cancel, a previously bounced direct debit will be resubmitted, as that had obviously happened before you cancelled the direct debit that is why it was still requested by Orange - as i said, all in the timing.
As for the full facts/story, you did not mention that you had also cancelled the Direct Debit through the bank, if that is the case,
that raises the question - if it had been cancelled at the bank, why did they pay it?
another fact/full story tit bit, the agent did advise you to cancel the Direct Debit, obviously knowledgable enough to know that it was possible a payment would be requested, if they didnt explain why you needed to cancel it, did you not wonder why?
As for making a fool of myself, No dear, that i havent done, you have failed to read and digest what i was trying to explain to you, the reasons behind it happening, i am not excusing it in any way, just trying to point out that in requesting the refund to be processed by Orange then doing an indemnity claim, it was possible that you would have ended up being refunded TWICE the amount paid, then leaving the JUNE bill unpaid, therefor putting you into arrears. Are you really surprised that having recieved the money back via the indemnity claim, you have not recieved any MORE money back from Orange by way of a refund? of course they would have stopped the refund from going through once the bank had clawed it back via indemnity.
apologies if this sounds a little 'snitty' but when trying to clarify a situation for somebody, i dont expect to be personally harranged, insulted and accused of making a 'complete idiot' of myself when it is obviously a case of the writer not willing to take on board the information provided and that, possibly due to a little impatience, they got themselves into the situation in the first place!
n.b The systems used will automatically cancel a direct debit (yes within 24 hours) that is attempted to be set up within 30 days of a previous payment bouncing, when it is posible that account would then be in arrears.
Also, going by your D/D date, i stand by both guesses, July bill already been produced by time double payment taken? amount taken exactly the same as first, and NOT the amount of julys bill?
Really dont want to get into a slanging match Emma, these forums as far as i am aware are to share information, get help ect. sorry if you took offence to my earlier response, and i will try not to take offence at your assumption that everyone in a call centre is incompetant!

[emma81]

OrangePrimate, i think we got off on the wrong foot i apreciate your comments on my thread but i was a little annoyed that you jumped in on the defensive before u knew all the facts...

1. Direct Debit was due on the 25/06 it didnt go through i called and paid on the 26/06 one day later, advisor never told me DD would be re-submitted and taken 10 days later.

2. Recieved a letter on the 29/06 saying my DD had bounced (as i already knew) they would re-apply to my bank in 10 days time for the money.

3. Called them on 29/06 advised i'd paid by debit card on the 26/06, they confirmed said to contact bank and stop DD.

4. Called bank on 29/06 cancelled DD.

5. Called Orange on 04/07 to set up a knew DD, was told by advisor was already one set up, explained situation, advisor just said i'll reinstate this one, confirmed dates etc, next DD due out on 23/07, account all up to date.

6. Checked account on 06/07, Orange had taken out money by DD, again, spoke with advisor, would arrange refund would take 3-5 working days.

7. Double checked with advisor that next months DD had been set up and everything was ok for JULY'S payment, advisor tells me no DD on account, i apparently called in on the 04/07 to set one up then the 05/07 to cancel (as you said in your email you cant cancel a DD in that short notice) told advisor not possible, they had no answers, as far as she was concerned no DD on account depite me recieveing a letter confirming my call on the 04/07 and my new DD details (Hmmmmmmmmmmmm)!!! Advisor also told me that the 10 day re-appliying rule for a DD was rubbish, she said they re-apply on the same day then 2 days later!

8. Told advisor to leave it and sort out refund and i will just pay with card from now on....she confirmed at the end of the call no DD was set up but she would sort out refund.

9. 6 days later no refund was put back into my account it was taken off JULY'S bill, appplied to bank for an Indeminity which i got back.

10. Called bank on 15th DD for Orange set up on my account despite me triple checking with advisor that there wasn't one.

I dont expect to have a refund from Orange now but please see this from my point of view i paid my bill for June by debit card and then Orange take it for a second time by direct debit 10 days later depite me calling and cancelling my DD, there would be no arrears on the account as i had already paid by card for this, the only thing that could possibly happen is that i would have to give Orange the money back they had refunded me as i'd done the Indeminity form. I asked on numerous occasions about my DD, being set up, that one minute there was one and the next there wasnt, as i said i had a confirmation letter from Orange that it had been set up and also the DD on my bank account but yet the advisor tells me different, i have never had problems with my DD before only this once, i have now decided to pay by debit card every month so there will be no more mishaps...!