Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Sec127 (3) repealed, now gone. S. 127(3)-(5) repealed (6.4.2007) by Consumer Credit Act 2006 (c. 14), ss. {15}, 70, 71(2), {Sch. 4} (with Sch. 3 para. 11); S.I. 2007/123, art. 3(2), Sch. 2
    • We used to recommend that people accept mediation but our advice has changed. The mediation process is unclear. Before you can embark on it you have to agree that you are prepared to enter a compromise – and that means that you agree that you are prepared to give up some of your rights even though you are completely in the right and you are entitled to hundred percent of your money and even though EVRi are simply trying to obstruct you in order to discourage you and also to put others who might want to follow your example off from claiming and even though they have a legitimate basis for reimbursement. Mediation is not transparent. In addition to having to sign up that you are prepared to give up some of your rights, you will also have to agree not to reveal any details of the mediation – including the result of the mediation – so that the whole thing is kept secret. This is not open justice. Mediation has nothing to do with justice. The only way of getting justice is to make sure that this matter goes to trial unless EVRi or the other parcel delivery companies put their hands up and accept the responsibility even if they do it is a gesture of goodwill. Going to trial and winning at trial produces a judgement which we can then add to our small collection to assist other people who are in a similar boat. EVRi had been leading you around by the nose since at least January – and probably last year as well – and their whole purpose is simply to drag it out, to place obstacles in your way, to deter other people, and to make you wish that you'd never started the process and that you are prepared to give up your 300 quid. You shouldn't stand for it. You should take control. EVRi would prefer that you went to mediation and if nothing else that is one excellent reason why you should decline mediation and go to court. If it's good for them it's bad for you. On mediation form, you should sign that you are not prepared to compromise and that you are not prepared to keep the result secret but that you want to share the results with other people in similar circumstances. This means that the mediation won't go ahead. It will take slightly longer and you will have to pay a court fee but you will get that back when you win and you will have much greater satisfaction. Also, once you go the whole process, you will learn even more about bringing a small claim in the County Court so that if this kind of thing happens again you will know what to do and you will go ahead without any hesitation. Finally, if you call EVRi's bluff and refuse mediation and go to trial, there is a chance – maybe not a big chance – but there is a chance that they will agree to pay out your claim before trial simply in order to avoid a judgement. Another judgement against them will simply hurt the position even more and they really don't want this. 300 quid plus your costs is peanuts to them. They don't care about it. They will set it off against tax so the taxpayer will make their contribution. It's all about maintaining their business model of not being liable for anything, and limiting or excluding liability contrary to section 57 and section 72 of the consumer rights act.     And incidentally, there is a myth that if you refuse mediation that somehow it will go against you and the judge will take a dim view and be critical of you. This is precisely a myth. It's not true. It would be highly improper if any judge decided the case against you on anything other than the facts and the law of the case. So don't worry about that. The downside of declining mediation is that your case will take slightly longer. The upside is that if you win you will get all your money and you will have a judgement in your favour which will help others. The chances of you winning in this case are better than 95% and of course you would then receive 100% of your claim plus costs
    • Nice to hear a positive story about a company on this form for a change. Thank you
    • too true HB, but those two I referred for starters - appear to be self admitted - One to excuse other lockdown law breaking, by claiming his estate away from his consistency and London abode was his main home the other if he claims to have 'not told the truth' in his own words via that quote - to have mislead his investors rather than broken lobbying rules   - seem to be slam dunks - pick which was your law breaking - it seems to be both and much more besides in Jenricks case Starmer was director of public prosecutions yet the tories are using seemingly baseless allegations for propaganda and starmer is missing pressing apparent blatant criminality in politics
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 160 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4757 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi guys, hoping someone can help me out here, cant remember the exact details of the problem (as in time etc) but i think i have it pretty much spot on.

 

I started my journey at Bounds Green in the morning (peak time) on my way to university. I had a presentation at Uni with a mate and we decided to meet up at Kings Cross station (underground). So there was me looking like a mug waiting for him underground for about an hour or so, so i would say i was underground for more or less and hour and 20 mins, i touched out at Kings cross (knowing that if you stay underground for more than 2 hours youll get charged) So i gave him a call no answer (underground?) phoned his house, mum picks up says he left, i go back underground where we were suppose to meet and wait for him for another good 40-60 mins or so? He doesnt show up so i head back to Bounds Green and head back home.

 

When i touch out at Bounds green i get charged for an incomplete journey, why? i was not underground for more than two hours OR touched in and out at the same station, so why was i charged?

 

This has happend to me once before about 5 or 6 months ago, where again i touched in at Bounds green, waited again for him again at Kings cross (lol he normally turns up just incase your all wondering), he never turned up, wasnt underground for 2 hours and i go back and touch out at wood green and then get charged for an incomplete journey. (has this one anything to do with the fact that the two stations i next to eachother? the guy at the counter tried to explain it to me, though he was not fluent in english and i never quite understood his explanation)

 

Hope all that made sense. Please can someone try and explain to me why on these two occasions i got charged?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think following your explanation above gives a good clue unless you have mossed something out

 

1. You state that you travelled from Bounds Green (touched in)

2. You state that you touched out at Kings Cross

3. You state that you were charged the maximum fare for an incomplete journey on arrival back at Wood Green

 

This would appear to be correct because you do not mention touching in again to start of your later journey to Wood Green

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think following your explanation above gives a good clue unless you have mossed something out

 

1. You state that you travelled from Bounds Green (touched in)

2. You state that you touched out at Kings Cross

3. You state that you were charged the maximum fare for an incomplete journey on arrival back at Wood Green

 

This would appear to be correct because you do not mention touching in again to start of your later journey to Wood Green

 

Not sure which one you mean but if you mean my first journey i forgot to mention, that i did touch in (after touching out) at Kings cross when going back to BOUNDS Green. What i did was I made the phone call which was no longer than 5 -10 mins then went back and touched in at kings cross and went back to bounds green. Is there a certain time limit from where you touch out and are allowed to touch back in again at the station?

 

If your talking about my second journey, i touched in at bounds green, waited (underground) at kings cross, mate never arrived, so traveled back to wood green and touched out there, knowing that i couldnt touch back out at bounds green.

 

Hope that makes it more clear.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, i've found the receipt for my second journey! (joy!!)

 

I started my journey from bounds green at 11:43, i arrived back at wood green at 1:17 and it doesnt say "incomplete journey" it says "unstarted" with a charge of £4.30.

Link to post
Share on other sites

One last post before i hush as i got to start some uni work in a bit. I was searching google for 'unstarted' charges and found this:

 

> Touching out and touching straight back in at the same station doesn't

> necessarily end and restart a new journey, and there are logical reasons for

> this. Once a journey that has been joined to another goes beyond the time

> limit (and that limit is variable dependent on zones crossed) the first part

> of the journey becomes 'uncompleted' and the latter part 'unstarted'. This

> is charged as two 'maximum cash fares' and doesn't contribute to the daily

> cap.

 

So would it not make more sense to only combine them if the combined

journey is within the time limit for the overall journey and keep them

as separate journeys[1] if the combined journey would be over the time

limit. Also, always treat it as 2 separate journeys rather than

combining them where someone touches in at A, touches out at B, then

later touches in again at B travels to A and touches out.

[1] As long as the time between between each touch in and the next touch

out is within the time limit.

 

--------------------------------------

 

I think this could explain both my journeys, but dont quite understand what they mean by 'new journeys' etc, can anyone desribe it in more basic terminology? What do they mean by time limits etc?

 

Sorry.

 

Thx.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To be certain of anything, I always find that so far as Oyster is concerned, it is much better to see the record from the Oyster monitoring system to be sure of what is alleged. This records all your touch-in and outs and has accurate timings along with location and credit details.

 

You can get a print out of your card transactions for the last 8 weeks by calling the Oyster Helpline on 0845 330 9876 and you can query the matter at the same time

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

On Oyster, if you touch in and out within 5 minutes a the same station, it charges you the full possible fare for your journey. This is because a lot of people would touch in, then immediately touch out to 'complete ' their journeys, and before tfl cottoned onto this were being charged the minimum fare possible. I would always advise if you finish a journey and notice a problem, go straight to a ticket office window where most staff will resolve your journey.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Hello,

 

I had the same problem twice this weekend and was able to get a refund. I went from shepherds bush market (touch in) to Kings cross st-Pancras (touch out) and then ~15 minutes later from Kings cross st-Pancras (touch in) back to Shepherds bush market (touch out). On touching out at Shepherds Bush market I noticed 4.30 was retrieved from my card which was wrong.

 

Then I called the Oyster helpline and explained the issue. They agreed there was a problem and said they were aware of this issue. It is a bug that was introduced in Jan 2010 when oyster card became valid on National Rail. It affects all stations with an interchange to rail network (Kings Cross, Victoria, etc.). Since you are touching out in one of those stations, the system somehow expects you to continue your journey. But if you go back in less than ~30 min or so it does not work correctly.

 

I think it is quite outrageous that we are now already end of May (nearly 5 months since Jan), that this issue has not yet been fixed at their end and that TFL just keeps quiet about this. It potentially affect thousands of travellers, whenever for example you go to bring some friends to the train station and back home.

 

Only solution currently if you planning to go to a train station and back is having 2 different oyster cards (one for departure, one for return journey) or systematically ask for a refund.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...
One last post before i hush as i got to start some uni work in a bit. I was searching google for 'unstarted' charges and found this:

 

> Touching out and touching straight back in at the same station doesn't

> necessarily end and restart a new journey, and there are logical reasons for

> this. Once a journey that has been joined to another goes beyond the time

> limit (and that limit is variable dependent on zones crossed) the first part

> of the journey becomes 'uncompleted' and the latter part 'unstarted'. This

> is charged as two 'maximum cash fares' and doesn't contribute to the daily

> cap.

 

So would it not make more sense to only combine them if the combined

journey is within the time limit for the overall journey and keep them

as separate journeys[1] if the combined journey would be over the time

limit. Also, always treat it as 2 separate journeys rather than

combining them where someone touches in at A, touches out at B, then

later touches in again at B travels to A and touches out.

[1] As long as the time between between each touch in and the next touch

out is within the time limit.

 

--------------------------------------

 

I think this could explain both my journeys, but dont quite understand what they mean by 'new journeys' etc, can anyone desribe it in more basic terminology? What do they mean by time limits etc?

 

Sorry.

 

Thx.

 

Hi, I found this thread really interesting because I think I had something quite similar happen to me recently where I touched out then touched in again to start a new journey at the same station. Could you please tell me what the time limit is and if it can affect your second swipe being recorded properly? Thanks!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Another point worth mentioning is that TfL hope to get rid of a lot of ticket windows staff because they 'arnt needed', but of course, when things go wrong, you cant ask a machine for advice....

 

Andy

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would always advise if you finish a journey and notice a problem, go straight to a ticket office window where most staff will resolve your journey.

 

If Boris gets his way, there soon won't be any ticket office windows...

Link to post
Share on other sites

If Boris gets his way, there soon won't be any ticket office windows...

 

Funny you should say that becuse the other day I had £1.60 on my oyster but couldnt travel coz it need £1.80 on it, simple i thought, ill top it up with 20p, there were 2 ticket mafhines and none would except my 20p and I eventually found a staff member who rubbed my 20p on the wall and it eventually worked and he pointed out that in future there wont be many/any staff to help in situations like that.

 

Andy

Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you please let me know as soon as you can if it is recorded when an Oyster reader doesn't read your card properly? Thanks!

 

In short the answer is yes, there are many failure codes that will show up on the Oyster record, for instance 'insufficient SV', 'pass back over', 'invalid card' and many others.

 

These will all show a 'Seek Assistance' indication to the traveller.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two issues at work in this thread. First is the concept of maximum journey times. It used to be 2 hours before National Rail completely joined Oyster in January 2010, but now there is a sliding scale depending on how many zone boundaries are crossed in the course of the journey. Most limits are in excess of two hours, but single zone journeys in the suburbs must be completed within 70 minutes during the daytime Monday to Friday, and the limit goes up from there. The second is the concept of Out-of-station-interchanges, or OSIs for short. They facilitate joining journeys together and thus reducing the cost. Unfortunately they can sometimes have undesirable side effects. Kings Cross is more complicated than most because in addition to the OSIs between the Underground station and both Kings Cross and St Pancras NR stations there is also an OSI between any pair of the three different underground gatelines.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, i've found the receipt for my second journey! (joy!!)

 

I started my journey from bounds green at 11:43, i arrived back at wood green at 1:17 and it doesnt say "incomplete journey" it says "unstarted" with a charge of £4.30.

 

tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14872.aspx

 

A journey from Bounds Green (Z3) to Kings Cross (Z1) would have been subject to a time limit of 90 minutes when you travelled.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...