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Ok, Please forgive me if i waffle on here. When we all get our Coucil tax bill we are given the opportunity to pay by installments, usually over 10 months. Now if we miss a month the council are super quick in getting a summons and thena liability order. And yes i do understand that if you miss a month or are late paying you should pay as soon as. But my objection is you then lose the right to pay the installments. So the debt has to be paid in one lump sum. Which of course cannot always be done. This then moves on to bailiffs. who then add on their charges. In turn making the debt bigger. And its the whole year they want. Even if its just a couple of payments missed. One huge snowball is chasing you . I do not have anargument about council tax per se. Yes i know its high but nothing we can do about that. I know i am waffling here. And i cant think how to put my point across. Ok paying the bill over ten months is difficult. If we paid over 12 then the money might be a bit easier to find. Oh beggar sorry guys i cant put down in words what i am thinking in my head. I know what i want to say but as i am writing it it all comes out wrong. Getting really frustrated now. Going to have a coffee and see if i can think of a better way of putting things.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
I think I know exactly what you are saying.
As soon as an instalment is missed, the Council immediately puts you into default and as asoon as this happens, you effectively lose the right to continue paying by this method even if you make good the missed DD before the next one is due.
Along with cashiers dept, I suspect they no longer have their own recovery departments so as soon as they receive a default, details are immediately forwarded to their outsourced DCA.
I could write a book about "cost saving measures" employed by local authorities. What they are actually doing is passing the cost to someone else who then adds their exhorbitant charges. And your council tax still goes up !!! Mind you that's to pay for their gold plated final salary, early retirement pensions. Wish I could get a job like that !!
Sorry, rant over but hope the first bit explained a little.
If my advice as been of help, please give me a quick click on the scales to your right
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Yes yes yes, Thank you. For the folk who do have to pay up front for council tax, the very few i suspect that can, what exactly do the council do with tis money. Are they earning extra interest on this money that really is not technically due as yet. To my mind its like your supermarket asking for all of the years shopping money before you have actually purchased anything. Lets face it, i am thinking of moving in with a friend of mine and giving up my house. At least that would stem the flow of money going out. Now if i were to pay this council tax, the whole amount for this year as well as last then i wonder how quick they would be to give me a refund for the rest of year if i were to leave my house. Hope your following this. And please rant away.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
I was talking to a friend of mine last night, Her parents are hitting the 80 year old mark. Her father has never missed a payment in his life on anything, But they went away for two weeks and for the first time he was late paying his council tax. When he got back from holiday he had a summons waiting for him. Now i know he will pay it straight away so it wont go any further but for gods sake all the council had to do was look at his previous history to know he was not a serial late payer. This man was at his wits end. We get scared so god only knows what the old and vulnerable are like. Not everyone has access to sites like this and the wonderful moral support we give each other and the advice.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
I agree that unless paying by instalments, you are required to pay for the council's services in advance. With other services which I would class as utilities, you pay for services in arrears i.e quarterly bills for gas, elec, water, phone etc - all payable in arrears.
What difference is there for council services, I very much doubt that they pay their suppliers a year in advance.
They are a rule to themselves quite frankly and you cannot complain as complaints are ignored. Irrespective of which of the muppet parties are "in control".
Oh to be a Councillor but I'm afraid I would not be selected for election as I live in the real world, not their undemocratic, PC, namby pamby, back handing, set somewhere in Brussels world.
More rant !!!!
If my advice as been of help, please give me a quick click on the scales to your right
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Ok. i think this should be a rant thread but at the same time can anyone with any ideas of how the system could be better, re collection of council tax etc be put forward. I dont know but any ideas welcome.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
But even the water people if you miss a payment or two they take you straight to court and slap you with a ccj. And the whole year becomes due. And they are privatised.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
smashedbobo has a valid point. If you miss a payment it may be because of financial difficulties, and the last thing that should be done is to then ask for the whole of the payment in one go.This is unrealistic, and shows just how out of touch with reality councils are.Don't forget that those on very low income usually have their council tax paid for them, and to target those who are actually working and trying to pay their way hardly seems right.In the case of the eighty year olds who went on holiday and missed a payment, it is often the case that older people are too proud to claim benefits - the council should as a matter of routine investigated the non-payment by elderly people.
Councils and the government know that Council Tax is deeply unpopular and often unfair, and the only way to make sure we pay is to have draconian penalities (i.e jail) if we don't pay.Most other debts are considered civil, and not criminal matters.
The only solution is for everyone to refuse to pay Council Tax until councils are truly accountable to those that pay their wages.It will not happen of course, as the majority of people are law abiding.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Well its not just jail now for non payment, which i do understand is very rare. More for the wont pays not the cant pays. Now they are threatening bankruptcy. Now call me stupid and yes i give you permission too but if i were to go bankrupt myself then this debt would be wiped out up to the date of going banko. Now surely it would be the same the other way round. If they sent me down then how the hell are they going to get their money. Am i being a muppet here and missing something vital. Apart from my brain. I would imagine if the council were to make me bankrupt then it would save me a whole heap of worry saving up to take myself down. If it were not for the fact i want to try and stay a teeny weeeeeeeeny bit solvent i would be saying to them bring it on. Game on doris as they say in my house.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
And whats all this about, Something i have never ever understood. They take you to court and what defense do we have. Sorry cant pay at the moment does not fit the bill. So yet again its all one sided. Oh god i am so so so bloody angry. Well frustrated more the like.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Hi all
I have been taken to court and lost because I always pay my council tax late but never miss a payment. The council refuse to readjust the payment date although they are aware that I always pay around the same time of the mth. They also have no provisions for self employed people, I am a sole trader and have been in business for 19mths running at a 6K loss in the 1st yr. I did not attend court as I could not close my business.
It seems now I am at loggerheads with the council, I will not pay the costs and when summons for that I will charge the council for my time to attend court, and deduct it accordingly from my council tax bill. I hope you can see where I'm coming from!! so where do I stand?
Regards
Scott
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Hi,
Just reading your post.
Don't you just love the councils control and unreasonableness.
My view...(.Nearly wrote a wrong post.)...
Reading your plight I am astounded that the court allowed it to happen. Yes you do have valid grounds and I would argue the point.
I would write to the Court for directions on the matter. Magistrates courts staff can be helpful of who to directly address the matter to. Often as I know a lovely magistrates court judge, who will tell you that the councils are far too quick to enter into court for liability orders to gaurantee their money and secure payment. Often without your rights considered.
I would write to the council first, with a very harsh letter and would copy it in to your local paper. They love stories like yours where people do the right thing and are penalised for the councils often unreasonable handling of matters.
If you would like some contacts post back.
A link to the court you may need to write to is here.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Originally Posted by ChloeJane
Hi,
Just reading your post.
Don't you just love the councils control and unreasonableness.
My view...(.Nearly wrote a wrong post.)...
Reading your plight I am astounded that the court allowed it to happen. Yes you do have valid grounds and I would argue the point.
I would write to the Court for directions on the matter. Magistrates courts staff can be helpful of who to directly address the matter to. Often as I know a lovely magistrates court judge, who will tell you that the councils are far too quick to enter into court for liability orders to gaurantee their money and secure payment. Often without your rights considered.
I would write to the council first, with a very harsh letter and would copy it in to your local paper. They love stories like yours where people do the right thing and are penalised for the councils often unreasonable handling of matters.
If you would like some contacts post back.
A link to the court you may need to write to is here.
Hi thx for your reply, I have already been down that road, and wrote a letter to the courts. I am now going to wait for the next summons, attend, and bill the council for my time.
Yes I will be contacting the papers etc, but I'll tell you now "If the courts side with the council for a second time I will close my business down and go on the dole so they will end up paying my council tax for me" I'll sell my house and travel the world race motorbikes and do everything I want to do. I'll save enough for a deposit to rent a flat, which they will have to pay my rent for also.
I'm at exploding point with this bullying hypicrital government who has given this country away to all and sundry. It's about time we all stood up like the French and said F*&K off we aint takin your S*&i anymore. Problem is everyone is scared, and there are too many jobs worth with no common sense who reads from a script. I have experienced alot of corruption first hand in this forsaken country, a country that has secret clubs (masons) and public schools, s*&t we probably invented pedeofiles, I mean who can take a government seriously that allows smoking in the house of commons bar. I had two experiences one was a bloke who crashed into the back of me in a RTA and got off scott free???????????? and another time were a man tried to hit me in the face with his car door during a battle of wits in a terraced road, I replied by kicking his door shut and denting the door, I was disqialified from driving???????????????? but it is ok for fatboy Prescot to punch a man in the face for throwing an Egg at him???????? In my cases one was a retired police officer and the other was a money laundering investigation officer. Explains alot that
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Your post was lovely and shares the outrage of many!
I agree with you totally with various statements made. As you said though, turn up at court and challenge!
I would write a witness statement. I will be happy to send through a template for you to use. I would also submit to the Court and Council at the same time of attendance, a skeleton arguement of points that you have sought to raise here.
By doing so, you will show you are serious. The Skeleton arguement is a list of very valid points that you have raised here. The issues of self employment, being discriminated against with an inflexible system and the issues you faced with attendance and financial loss.
Lots of people are scared Scott. Laws here and methods are very antiquated and not inline with todays changing society and needs. It takes a lot to challenge a system, but one by one after you do someone else will find the courage and do the same.
If you need any help with putting together your skeleton arguement for the courts on points you wish to raise, I would be happy to find you case references and provide you information that may help to give as information to the Court on your plight of injustice. As this is clearly, what it is ...injustice.
Don't go scooting off around the world on that bike yet! You appear to have the nouse to start a business which takes courage and dertermination so I am sure seeing through a battle in the courts will add to a succesful way forward.
There are case references for discrimination for those that are self employed and would be good to recite and if the judge can see your logic, you will fare well. Takes prior planning though and preparation, so if you are genuinly going to tacklet the council in court.....post back and am sure for injustice you will have many followers and encouragement.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Yes I would love your help, you seem a level headed inteligent person. I am a working class bloke who knows what to say but because of my passionate nature sometimes it all comes out wrong.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
I have to address a few points in this thread.
The Council Tax Legislation stipulates that Council Tax becomes due in full for the year on 1st April each year. The legislation requires that the authority gives ten statutory instalments for payment.
Statutory instalments must be paid on or before the date they become due. If an instalment is not paid on or before the date is due then the authority must issue a reminder notice.
Only two reminders can be issued in any one financial period, a third default in any period results in automatic loss of the right to pay by instalment. At this point a final notice is issued requiring payment of the balance in full. Failure to do so results in issue of a summons and ultimately a liability order. Notice of liability order must be issued giving 14 days to address the charge before it is enforced.
In the circumstance where a reminder is issued and payment is not made in accordance with said reminder then instalment right can be withdrawn upon failure to pay the next instalment.
Although i understand that this is a strict system, it is governed by strict laws which the authority is obliged to follow.
I do not wish to offend anyone but much of this thread confuses Council policy with Council Tax Legislation. The procedure for collection and enforcement of Council Tax is clearly set out by the Collection and Enforcement regulations. The Council cannot change these procedures. They are obliged to follow these laws.
I know this is the law and how it SHOULD be administered, fo course, if there are Councils out there incorrectly administering these regulations then that of course is a different matter.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Originally Posted by Crutey
I have to address a few points in this thread.
The Council Tax Legislation stipulates that Council Tax becomes due in full for the year on 1st April each year. The legislation requires that the authority gives ten statutory instalments for payment.
Statutory instalments must be paid on or before the date they become due. If an instalment is not paid on or before the date is due then the authority must issue a reminder notice.
Only two reminders can be issued in any one financial period, a third default in any period results in automatic loss of the right to pay by instalment. At this point a final notice is issued requiring payment of the balance in full. Failure to do so results in issue of a summons and ultimately a liability order. Notice of liability order must be issued giving 14 days to address the charge before it is enforced.
In the circumstance where a reminder is issued and payment is not made in accordance with said reminder then instalment right can be withdrawn upon failure to pay the next instalment.
Although i understand that this is a strict system, it is governed by strict laws which the authority is obliged to follow.
I do not wish to offend anyone but much of this thread confuses Council policy with Council Tax Legislation. The procedure for collection and enforcement of Council Tax is clearly set out by the Collection and Enforcement regulations. The Council cannot change these procedures. They are obliged to follow these laws.
I know this is the law and how it SHOULD be administered, fo course, if there are Councils out there incorrectly administering these regulations then that of course is a different matter.
What the council fail to tell you is what you are entitled to claim for. It seems that I may be able to claim CT benefit. MMMM this brings me back to jobs worths etc
Scott
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Basically you are required to claim any benefit that you may be entitled to. Although most Council's do have benefit uptake initiatives they are only required to publisise the fact that benefit is available. You are expected to claim it.
The government are currently discussing amending the legislation so that if you are entitled to a passport benefit such as IS or JSA you will automatically be paid CTB but currently thats not in force.
Basically the Councils will never do more than they are legally required to, whether you like it or not if they did it would only result in higher Council Tax bills.
Although i understand your point, i know as well as anyone else that when these situations arise you are at the mercy of the staff and if they fail to administer correctly or dont know their job properly it impacts on you not them. I would be just as frustrated as you.
Re: Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
Some other points in this thread.
Magistrates are laymen, unfortunately it is intrinsic to the position that they are not experts on the legislation. If they were they would be aware that the law requires that legal action is taken and stipulates, in days, the time frame it must work to.
The only things a magistrate can consider when granting a liability order is that you are liable to pay the charges and they have not been paid in accordance with the regulations, they cannot legally consider anything else.
Councils have a duty, as set out in law, to administer and collect Council Tax. They are required by law to do certain things, to ask a council to do more than its legal requirement is in my opinion unfeasible. The more you require the Council to do, the more it costs to administer the tax, that only can result in a higher tax bill for the customer.
There has to be some middle ground, a line drawn in the sand if you will, a point at which the proceedings have to begin. To treat people differently based on their circumstances, not only illegal, would be impossible to pay for.
The only option the Councils have is to use automated systems to carry out the procedures to the letter of the law and involve human intervention where it is brought to their attention that such action is required.
Unfortunately you will never get to a stage where the council checks up on your account and tells you they can help you. You will always have to ask for help before a council will even look at your account in most cases.
I fully understand that a majority of issues discussed here have been exacerbated by incorrect administration or failure to fulfill requirements by the authority. There is obviously no excuse for bad service. I am simply trying to offer a balanced argument based on my knowledge of the legislation and procedures. Please do not take offense, i mean none by what i say.
Council Tax. Losing the right to pay installments
. who then add on their charges. In turn making the debt bigger. And its the whole year they want. Even if its just a couple of payments missed. One huge snowball is chasing you . I do not have anargument about council tax per se. Yes i know its high but nothing we can do about that. I know i am waffling here. And i cant think how to put my point across. Ok paying the bill over ten months is difficult. If we paid over 12 then the money might be a bit easier to find. Oh beggar sorry guys i cant put down in words what i am thinking in my head. I know what i want to say but as i am writing it it all comes out wrong. Getting really frustrated now. Going to have a coffee and see if i can think of a better way of putting things.
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Originally Posted by ChloeJane
