Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
Here goes. The first shot has just been sent by secure message. Having failed to resolve the return of a recent charge. I have stated that looking over my statements it is apparent that we (it is a joint account) have been overcharged by a great deal. We would like to outline what we have found. Smile has a secure messaging system which is limited to 1000 characters, (less in practice). I have asked them for a “normal” email address so I can send my preliminary notes in.
Going back to the beginning of six years I can see that after a certain date there would be no interest charges as the account would be above the authorised overdraft threshold, thanks to the lack of previously accrued charges. What is going to be fun is working out the interest refund we are eligible to prior to that date.
So the charges, interest and costs involved in doing what should be an unnecessary exercise the amount will be around £1350. When you think about it, this sort of extra money for a bank is a nice little earner and it is no wonder they are not happy at giving it back.
One comment I did make with regards charges is “would it be alright for me to charge the Bank the cost to me when I have travelled to the Co-op branch to pay money in only to find I was not able to, (passing early in the morning while going out to work) forcing a second trip? This has happened three times this year. Once the door swipe mechanism was not working, and twice having got into the lobby the deposit machine was not working.” I think we all know what their answer to that will be.
Sorry I have been a bit slow in updating this. It has been a busy month, getting the house ready for a survey, job hunting with the wife and now house husbanding 2 kids etc…. Happy Happy Joy Joy
Dredged through everything to find we were six statements short of six years. Decided on a slightly unusual approach. Sent a preliminary, preliminary stating what the state of affairs was for 30 months and listed the charges. This was sent 13th June and spread over 11 secure messages. We also asked about payment of £10.00 for the Subject access request, could this be taken from the account if instructed or does it need to be a cheque? The reason for this was to do with us having most of the information. Smile could take up to 40 days to respond with the SAR data so instead of waiting all that time, we set the ball rolling with what we had, stating we will add the possible six months of charges to the total figure. This is giving as much leeway to Smile to resolve. Once we have got everything we will the do the usual and set deadlines with a proper preliminary and the a letter before action if it comes to that.
Smile have until 1st August to return the SAR data.
With regards the SAR payment we got this SM:
Hello Mr Johnny We can debit the amount from your account. Alternatively, you can send a cheque payable to smile to:
Customer Feedback 1 Balloon Street Manchester M60 4EP.
A Subject access request will list all statements and thus all charges applied to your account.
Regards Some Bank Operative Type
Got a Dear Johnny 18th June:
Hello Mr Johnny
Thank you for your recent messages. I am sorry to hear that you have been disappointed by the service you have received from Smile. I can assure you that I have raised your concerns with the appropriate department who will respond to you by post, in due course.
Regards Smile
A few days later we sent the SAR payment to Smile, recorded delivery. We included a copy of the 11 SMs so there would be no confusion as to what claims this was about.
Smile responded by return of post with a letter on Co-operative Bank headed paper, 22nd June:
Thank you for your recent secure message.
I am sorry that you have had cause to write to us regarding your Smile account. I do appreciate that you feel you have not received the high standard of service which all our customers are entitled to expect.
We will immediately begin a review of the issues you have raised and will reply to your secure message fully once our investigations are completed.
I have enclosed a copy of our complaints procedure leaflet for you information, and in the meantime I would assure you that we will do everything possible to resolve this matter for you.
Yours sincerely, Customer Relations Advisor
Since then we have had no further contact with Smile. And fortunately no offers to become a ‘Highways Agency Structural Support Operative’ either ;-)
I don't really see the advantage of using SM, I think it's leaving yourself open to them messing about, it's hardly a burden knocking out the template letters, I did it all by letters and it went perfectly well
anyway, best of luck with all your sundry things to do!
NatWest
sar 310107|Prelim 120407|LBA 260407|N1 310507 | Served 130607 | Ack 270607 | Def 130707 | AQ/Strike out/Draft directions 270707 | | Court Date 080807 | Stayed Barclays sar 310207|Prelim 120407| LBA 270407|N1 310507 | Served 130607 | Ack 210607 | Def 100707 | AQ/Strike out/Draft directions 230707 | Court Date 080807 | Stayed Smile/Co-op Prelim 010607 | LBA 230607 | N1 090707 | Served 180707 | Ack 260607 | Co-op SETTLED 150807 MBNA sar 040607 Citi sar 040607 Egg sar 040607 | Prelim 010807|LBA 160807 Halifax sar 130607
Got the missing data from the SAR at the weekend. I now know the total amount £1,553.30 + interest. I have sent an SM to advise the Bank of the final total of charges and to remind them of the dates we have set.
No other “communications” from the Bank to date.
By the way Micky I sort of agree with you about the SMs. There is no proof you have sent one unless they reply, plus Smile have been a bit slow responding lately anyway. The messages have been put into a normal letter and sent snail mail as well.
It is a little. Good for you cycling for getting your N1 in. Let us know when they acknowledge.
I'm still waiting for them to provide my missing statements as per my SAR request. They have another 14 days to comply.
Even with out the 20 odd statements that are missing, I've calculated over £1500 in charges. I have an overdraft with them that I'd like to clear, so this will help (from student days ).
Time for an update. The lba went in on Friday 27th. It just happened to be the day on my timetable, (and the OFT’s, pre the leak) - Ho hum. For over £2200. So let’s see if the Test case makes any difference to their performance. As far as I’m concerned my harrying of the Bank will continue. If they come back and say that everything is suspended pending the test case, I want to know if that includes the charging?
8th August is the next deadline.
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There has been some secure messaging going backwards and forwards about this and that, some get answered, some don’t.
Here are a couple that might be interesting?
1. I asked how the commission charge has gone up so steeply compared to inflation. In March ’03 it was £10. It is (and has been for awhile £25). Taking inflation only it should be no more than £12.00. Not that they should be charging that much anyway.
Reply: Dear Johnny,
The bank charges have increased to 25.00 to allow us to cover transactions both above and below this amount. For example, a direct debit for £500.00 would still receive a charge of £25.00, therefore the bank deems this an appropriate charge.
At present, it is the bank that decides what a reasonable charge is. As you may be aware, bank charges are currently being assessed by the office of fair trading and the financial services authority, until the time that
they set a limit for 'reasonable' bank charges, it is the bank's prerogative to charge this amount.
Thanks, Bank Bod.
2. I asked for a Breakdown to the charges applied as ‘commission’. As technology was automating a lot of the work for the any Bank. IT was surly bringing down the cost of handling things like direct debit and the like.
...With regard to your request for a breakdown of charges. This is considered confidential business information, therefore I must decline...
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The Bank has been very poor in handling the “complaint” as they like to call it. After I sent in my official Prelim with the letter I got back was a leaflet “We want our service to be 100”. So just in case any of you Smilers haven’t seen it. Here is a little extract. By the way it is a Cooperative leaflet.
We believe all customers making a complaint deserve six things: > An apology > To be heard > To be understood > To be respected > An explanation > Action as soon as possible.
There is a section titles “Have we let you down” which includes:
“We will deal with your complaint as quickly and thoroughly as possible. If your complaint cannot be resolved immediately, we will tell you when you can expect a response and keep you informed of progress. We promise to acknowledge your complaint within two working days and reply to you within seven working days.”
There is also a section that is titled “If you’re still unhappy”
“In the majority of cases, complaints can be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. If this not the case, however, you should ask for your complaint to be escalated in line with The Bank’s internal complaints procedure.”
My “complaint” has not been dealt with in their timescale or in the manner they suggest it would. Also I have asked for it to be escalated twice now and this has not even been acknowledged.
Called Smile for an update. As by the fsa guide lines my ‘complaint should have a response after 8 weeks – today.
Yada, yada working with FSA due to OFT test case the claims are on hold.
Q. Asked that as my claim was in place prior to OFT announcement that this could still be resolved amicably?
A. No, all claims current and new will be on hold.
Q. Will the Bank be suspending the charges while the test case is in progress?
A. No
Q. Suggested that it is usual while a moratorium is in place that both sides suspend their activities. As they are the cause of the test case shouldn’t they stop the charges? They could always come back for them if they won the case?
A. No, we will continue to operate using the account's terms and conditions.
Informed bank bod that as they are not suspending their activity with charges, I will not suspend my activities and place my claim to court as specified.
Bizarrely the guy thought that their 8 weeks to investigate my 'compliant' started from when they wrote to me the 2nd time, 23rd July not when when I actually complained; 13th June.
By the way missed a post. As OFT announcement likely to scupper claim timetable, offered an extension (on 2nd Aug) to date before logging with court as gesture of goodwill, (going on holiday at the wrong time ). Not sure if this was olive branch or straw clutching. Moved the date from 8th to 17th Aug. Oh well that didn’t work.
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What do people think of alternative action if my Court claim is held? For example we have a loan with Smile, which is now roughly outstanding, the same value as the disputed monies. Could I suggest to Smile suspending payment till after the court case stating why, and if things get awkward have an alternative route to court?
Isn’t it quiet?
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About time for an update…..
I stopped short of court with the likelihood of a stay it just didn’t seem worth it to me, (please don’t take any notice of me as this is not what is suggested as a course of action). I’m holding this back as a sort of penknife of Damocles.
Still there has been plenty of going backwards and forwards over the matter. Smile has been so slow and shoddy in our treatment. They are just not willing to take into account our financial situation and the fact we wouldn’t be in a financial situation except for the charges. For example they have insisted that the overdraft we currently have be cancelled. Smile will not give any actual reason for this after repeated asking. They did agree to go for a reducing amount each month – even though we are not happy about this. It has been rumbling on for nearly two months. I keep telling them I am happy to see what the OFT cases brings, but I am not happy about the fact they are trying to have their cake before it is baked – if it gets baked in their favour anyway (which we all hope it wont). I have threatened to stop funding the current account shortly (and therefore the loan we also have with them) and put the accounts into dispute. So if anything exciting happens I’ll let you know.
Blimey, the last post in this thread was 783 days ago and it is still quiet
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Thought an update might be an idea. Short version !
> We parachuted out from Smile in Jan '08.
> Disagreement rumbled on, still asked for case to be looked at on hardship grounds.
> Had a payment plan in place for a few months
> Final straw was the continued calling from the Bank and their power dialler. Half the time the calls when answered would be silent, so raised complaint to fos, beginning of Feb '09 (Just over a year ago).
> At that point the phone calls asking for money stopped.
> The complaint went into a holding pattern and every so often we would get a note from FOS to say it was with a different adjudicator.
> Recently been told will have an adjudication soon.
> Early Jan '10 received mail shot type letter from Simon Crosby, Customer Feedback Manager which basically said our claim be rejected in light of Supreme Court ruling. Of course there was no mention that the Supreme Court had in fact suggested Regulation 5 of the UTCCR regulations could be worth looking at. So we fired back a letter saying we were waiting for FOS adjudication and depending on the outcome after that would look to recovery in the courts.
Will post when something happens. Ttfn
P.s. Does Val McCarren exist? I have noticed that if I ever write to her we never get a reply. Even though she is a prolific letter writer her self. I have to say that Smile/Co-operative seem to be getting worse for handling complaints and more arrogant with it.
If your are wondering, that's supposed to be an echo ;-)
Smile (The Cooperative) are sooooo quiet.
No real change. 25th March the Financial Ombudsman Service ruled against us (shock ). Part of their reasoning was we could afford to pay the charges - now. Plus the Supreme Court had found in favour of the Banks and therefore the Co-operative trading as smile. As you can probably guess. A rebuttal went straight back.
In 2007 we most definitely could not afford it. And even by a long stretch of the imagination we could hardly afford it now. How many families of four do you know that live in a 1-bedroomed house? Plus the Supreme Court ruling is hardly the emphatic victory the Bank would like us to think. We had a response from the fos about a month latter to say the case would be reviewed.
We thought it would be an idea to get a credit file to see how bad the file looked thanks to the smile. And as expected they are not passing to the Credit Reference Agencies the fact the account is "in dispute" or "under query" or similar. Oh to be a delinquent!
This does sink any chance of get out of the 1-bedroomed house for the moment but we have started the route of complaint to the Bank, The Information Commissioner's Office. And when the dust settles, our re-elected Member of Parliament.
"I am writing to tell you that we have now completed our review of your complaint. I enclose the Ombudsman's decision... ...I am sorry to say that the ombudsman has not upheld your complaint"
No surprise there really......
We have got 4 weeks to either accept or reject the decision. We will consider this over the next couple of days and probably send their form back REJECTED. Then the next step will be to start the court route.
Smile are not getting any of their over-inflated charges back.
I think this thread is virtually finished .
We rejected the Financial Ombudsman Service decision, but prior to our rejection, (deadline 9th December) Smile sent a Default Notice and Termination. We did raise a couple of queries with the fos about their decision as they seemed very woolly in their thinking. Their reply received today:
"... Due to the nature of the final decision process, we are unable to enter into further communication regarding the merits of this complaint".
In other words if you don't like it - tough.
Anyway the fun and games if the Default Notice and Termination can be found here. I split this as it has evolved into something else
As for claiming unlawful charges goes it seems like the goalposts have moved and depending what smile do now will depend on what happens next. At least I've got some of the charges in an overdraft so they will have to come get it and that is after unlawful rescission!
As an aside from charges I will be writing to my MP regarding the FOS. Not so much about our claim, as it seems there is little you can do - they appear to be a law to themselves. More to see if his weight can be added to start reviewing FOS and lack of transparency, poor service, and so on. I started our complaint with the Bank in Nov 2007 and after 37 months and FOS involvement I have not had an answer to my very simple question, (which goes even further back)!
The Cyclingoscars v Smile
threshold, thanks to the lack of previously accrued charges. What is going to be fun is working out the interest refund we are eligible to prior to that date.
Reply With Quote
).
). Not sure if this was olive branch or straw clutching. Moved the date from 8th to 17th Aug. Oh well that didn’t work.
