Thread: Think i've messed up big time **DEFENCE & C/C STRUCK OUT** WON**

Back to your post 1. that is not the normal defence and your claim will fail based on your current particulars.

You must file an amendment to your particulars (you will have to pay a non refundable fee of £35) using this form:
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...on-notice.html

based on particulars from here:
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-claim-n1.html

Given you used MCOL you may be not be able to do this yet. Can you provide more details, like when you issued your claim, the Lloyds counterclaim words.

As they have a counterclaim, we need to consider your exposure to the other sides claim and their legal costs as their counterclaim is likely to be above £5K.

I am concerned that their claim is 10 x your charges. I do not wish to scaremonger, but this is serious as you do not have a penalty charge claim to extinguish most of the counterclaim.

Although I am not sure on this point, I see no problem with Lloyds counterclaiming even though the debts was passed to a DCA, but I would be happy for someone to correct me.

If you owe them around £10K, you should not have started this claim, but that is too late now.

Hi Guidot,
The claim was issued through MCOL on 14/3/07 and i recieved Lloyds defence and counterclaim through the post today (19/4/07).
The counterclaim consists of listing all the dates of when i opened the account, when i took a loan out with them and dates that i defaulted etc.
It goes on to list the amounts i owe on my select account, the amount i owe on the loan account and the interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act. This brings the amount counterclaimed to over £16.000.
I have just rang the DCA whom i am making the Lloyds repayments to, and asked them if they had bought the debt from lloyds. They seemed a bit cagey but said that no they hadn't, and that they were acting for lloyds. I then asked them what i should do if Lloyds were to write to me asking me to make repayments to them. They replied that i should pay nothing to lloyds and to tell them that Moorcroft were now dealing with the debt. This sounds a little bit odd to me, as i also make regular payments to this same DCO for another debt unrelated to Lloyds. Do you think that what they say is true? Based on your concerns, can i decide not to take this any further through the courts (presuming that i would come out of it a lot worse off), and if so would that be the end of it including the counterclaim? Thanks very much for your advice.

Point out to the DCA that you are disputing the debt with lloydstsb they are then effectivly barred from chasing you.

Likr you I had a MCOL claim go pear shaped, PM me ah I may be able to help

J

If you stop your claim, then no that does not bring an end to the counterclaim.

Is the £16,000 about correct?

I am really not sure of the position here with the DCA and having agreed a payment plan and the impact of this on the Lloyds' prospects with the counterclaim.

I am going to get someone in the know to have a look at your thread.

Was this loan made up of charges?
Send Lloyds a CCA request and a full SAR requesting the original loan agreement.
Have a look at this thread here which has loan issues in it as well.

Yes, as Giz said get a CCA and SAR off straight away - like first thing tomorrow morning by 1st class recorded delivery.

Also, can you post the counterclaim in its entirety please? In fact I'll PM you my e-mail if you'd prefer to do it that way.

I'm not sure there's going to be much chance of avoiding a CCJ here, but we can try at least.

You'll also need to amend your claim ASAP - see the thread Nic posted earlier, if there is anything your not sure of just shout.

Thanks for all the above help and advice.

Just to update you i sent the SAR and the CCA off by recorded first class post yesterday (21/04/07).

I wish i had found this site in the first place. After reading so much of the advice on the forum, i realise how much i've messed up. I, like so many others i would imagine, just rushed in without giving it much thought. It really is essential to spend a few days reading the forum before making a claim. if i had done that in the first place i would have saved myself a lot of work and worry! Knowing what i now know, i'm amazed that Nationwide paid up (£670.00 on the 17th April) when my POC said nothing more than 'claiming back unfair bank charges'!

GaryH is helping me with my defence as regards Lloyds counterclaim (thank you GaryH). I have PM'd him with a few questions, but have just read that i should post any questions on the open forum that could probably be answered by other members (sorry GaryH for PM'ing you willy nilly!) Hopefully someone can advise me.

As the details of my original claim were insufficent, i have to submit a new particulars of claim. I have filled in the N1 and the N244 and am planning to take them to the court on Tuesday. As i understand it, i need to take 3 copies of each of the above, plus 3 copies of my schedule of charges (i take it this is what is referred to as the 'spreadsheet'?) plus £35.00. Could anyone please confirm this?

Should i take the aq to the court along with the above or will it not make any difference if i take it in with my defence at a later date, as i'm having a little trouble filling the AQ in (it has to be in by 2/05/07).

As the counterclaim is for over £15,000 the court have said in a letter to me that if the defendant does not pay the £100 court fee within 10 days (of the 13th April), then the counterclaim will be struck out.
Will the court let me know if Lloyds pay this in time? The letter also says that i must return the AQ with a court fee of £100 if the claim is for over £15,000. As my claim is for around £1,700 (with interest) and the counterclaim is for around £16,000, does the court count the combined value of the claim when considering if a fee is payable, and if so does this mean that i have to pay the £100 as well?

With question C of the AQ (track), should i agree that the small claims track is the most suitable? It states in the notes on the back of the AQ that disputes over £15,000 are allocated to the Muti-track, so again i'm not sure when answering this if i should count the combined value of the claim plus the counterclaim.

In section G of the AQ should i follow the 'New Strategy For A.Q's' as in GaryH's thread, or would it not be in my interest to possibly speed things up seeing as i still have to get a defence to the counterclaim together, or would this not make any difference?

Phew, sorry if i'm rambling :? . From what i've read i should start a 'kazzie v Lloyds' thread. I'm not sure how i would move this thread to the new one so would appreciate any help on doing that.

Thanks again for the help so far.

Originally Posted by Kazzie

Thanks for all the above help and advice.

Just to update you i sent the SAR and the CCA off by recorded first class post yesterday (21/04/07).
Excellent, well done
I wish i had found this site in the first place. After reading so much of the advice on the forum, i realise how much i've messed up. I, like so many others i would imagine, just rushed in without giving it much thought. It really is essential to spend a few days reading the forum before making a claim. if i had done that in the first place i would have saved myself a lot of work and worry! Knowing what i now know, i'm amazed that Nationwide paid up (£670.00 on the 17th April) when my POC said nothing more than 'claiming back unfair bank charges'!
Wow - believe me you were lucky! No such luck with Lloyds I'm afraid, they'll seize on every possible opportunity.
GaryH is helping me with my defence as regards Lloyds counterclaim (thank you GaryH). I have PM'd him with a few questions, but have just read that i should post any questions on the open forum that could probably be answered by other members (sorry GaryH for PM'ing you willy nilly!) Hopefully someone can advise me.
Not a problem, I asked you to PM me so its fine.
As the details of my original claim were insufficent, i have to submit a new particulars of claim. I have filled in the N1 and the N244 and am planning to take them to the court on Tuesday. As i understand it, i need to take 3 copies of each of the above, plus 3 copies of my schedule of charges (i take it this is what is referred to as the 'spreadsheet'?) plus £35.00. Could anyone please confirm this?
Yes, correct - Schedule of charges = spreadsheet
Should i take the aq to the court along with the above or will it not make any difference if i take it in with my defence at a later date, as i'm having a little trouble filling the AQ in (it has to be in by 2/05/07).
In fact, I'd take it all in at the same time. Leave it all til the 2nd, or just before. The court won't take any action on it before then anyway.
As the counterclaim is for over £15,000 the court have said in a letter to me that if the defendant does not pay the £100 court fee within 10 days (of the 13th April), then the counterclaim will be struck out.
Will the court let me know if Lloyds pay this in time? The letter also says that i must return the AQ with a court fee of £100 if the claim is for over £1,500. As my claim is for around £1,700 (with interest) and the counterclaim is for around £16,000, does the court count the combined value of the claim when considering if a fee is payable, and if so does this mean that i have to pay the £100 as well?
Ring the court and ask - knowing Lloyds they may not have, they're the most innefficiant company I've ever had the misfortune to come accross. That said, don't raise your hopes to high - it might be different when it comes to them suing you, rather than the other way around!

Yes, I'm afraid that unless you qualify for exemption or remission - which is worth looking into - then you'll need to pay the £100.
With question C of the AQ (track), should i agree that the small claims track is the most suitable? It states in the notes on the back of the AQ that disputes over £15,000 are allocated to the Muti-track, so again i'm not sure when answering this if i should count the combined value of the claim plus the counterclaim.
Ask for small claims - you probably won't get it becouse of the counterclaim, but ask anyway.
In section G of the AQ should i follow the 'New Strategy For A.Q's' as in GaryH's thread, or would it not be in my interest to possibly speed things up seeing as i still have to get a defence to the counterclaim together, or would this not make any difference?
Can do if you want - although your main worry is not the amount you are claiming for, its the amount you are defending! Yes, actually I would ask for disclosure anyway.
Phew, sorry if i'm rambling :? . From what i've read i should start a 'kazzie v Lloyds' thread. I'm not sure how i would move this thread to the new one so would appreciate any help on doing that.
Not really necessary, unless you want to. I can change the title for you if you like?
Thanks again for the help so far.

You've got options on this, but unfortunately none are without an element of risk.

In all likelyhood Lloyds will settle the claim further down the line then continue with the counterclaim, minus the £1700.

By the 2nd of May you need to either defend, or admit the amount owing.

You have everyright to see the copy of the CCA agreements before you plead specifically, and in fact if the agreement cannot be provided to you by the creditor or is not properly executed then the debt becomes unenforceable anyway, under section 77 of the CCA. This is your only opportunity to get out of this situation 'unscathed' as far as I can see - and I should also say that I'm not an 'expert' on this sort of stuff.

On this basis you could rebut the counterclaim, saying you've requested a copy of the agreement under the CCA and that it should have been served attached to the claim form in the fist place. You would also state that you reserve the right to plead further if/when they provide you with the agreement. The defence would be simular (but shorter) to this - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...tml#post668541

Having said that, that defence was drafted for a claim in which I knew already that there was a very good chance that the agreement could not be provided, as it had previously been requested to no avail. In your case, in all honesty its quite hard to envisage how they would not be able to come up with an agreement which was signed as recently as 2004, although its not entirely inconceivable I suppose.

As the claim would likely go to fast track you could also submit a part 18 request for further information, and see if we can pick holes in their counterclaim that way. If you fight them and we can find some flaws in the agreement or the counterclaim in general, then they might just decide they don't fancy it and back down.

Another thing you must consider though, if you choose this route, is that the claim will almost certainly be fast tracked, so if you defend, then later go on to admit at a later date or indeed lose, you may also be liable for Lloyds' legal costs.

The other alternative is to file an admission with a request for time to pay. You'd file an income/expenditure schedule and offer a small amount in disposable income to pay as installments. This post may be useful in this regard - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...tml#post300647

Lloyds could contest this amount if they choose to, although this is unlikely as they would probably not get better than that from the judge if they pursued to a trial or hearing. This does mean however, that you would inevitably have a CCJ on your credit file.

The choice has to be yours. We'll help you either way, and should you decide to defend we can work on a defence for you. Unfortunately there is no easy way out of this - take all the factors into consideration and make a decision. Any further questions, let me know - I'll be back this afternoon.

I'd also like to know a bit more about the circumstances under which you were given this loan, how it was sold, any PPI, etc. Obviously you can PM me with this.

Originally Posted by GaryH

You've got options on this, but unfortunately none are without an element of risk.

In all likelyhood Lloyds will settle the claim further down the line then continue with the counterclaim, minus the £1700.
I think i could live with that!

By the 2nd of May you need to either defend, or admit the amount owing.

You have everyright to see the copy of the CCA agreements before you plead specifically, and in fact if the agreement cannot be provided to you by the creditor or is not properly executed then the debt becomes unenforceable anyway, under section 77 of the CCA. This is your only opportunity to get out of this situation 'unscathed' as far as I can see - and I should also say that I'm not an 'expert' on this sort of stuff.

On this basis you could rebut the counterclaim, saying you've requested a copy of the agreement under the CCA and that it should have been served attached to the claim form in the fist place. You would also state that you reserve the right to plead further if/when they provide you with the agreement. The defence would be simular (but shorter) to this - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...tml#post668541

Having said that, that defence was drafted for a claim in which I knew already that there was a very good chance that the agreement could not be provided, as it had previously been requested to no avail. In your case, in all honesty its quite hard to envisage how they would not be able to come up with an agreement which was signed as recently as 2004, although its not entirely inconceivable I suppose.

As the claim would likely go to fast track you could also submit a part 18 request for further information, and see if we can pick holes in their counterclaim that way. If you fight them and we can find some flaws in the agreement or the counterclaim in general, then they might just decide they don't fancy it and back down.

Another thing you must consider though, if you choose this route, is that the claim will almost certainly be fast tracked, so if you defend, then later go on to admit at a later date or indeed lose, you may also be liable for Lloyds' legal costs.
I'm concerned about this one, have i not already admitted i owe this amount simply by not disputing it and coming to an agreement with Moorcroft (who are acting for Lloyds) to repay the debt?
If so then i presume i can't reasonably defend it. Can Lloyds reasonably counterclaim me for this amount even though i have effectively come to an agreement with them already (via their agents) by providing their agents with an income/expenditure schedule and coming to a mutually agreeable payment arrangement (which is still running and is up to date)?

The other alternative is to file an admission with a request for time to pay. You'd file an income/expenditure schedule and offer a small amount in disposable income to pay as installments. This post may be useful in this regard - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...tml#post300647

Lloyds could contest this amount if they choose to, although this is unlikely as they would probably not get better than that from the judge if they pursued to a trial or hearing. This does mean however, that you would inevitably have a CCJ on your credit file.
Another CCJ on my credit file is not going to make a lot of difference to my credit rating unfortunately

The choice has to be yours. We'll help you either way, and should you decide to defend we can work on a defence for you. Unfortunately there is no easy way out of this - take all the factors into consideration and make a decision. Any further questions, let me know - I'll be back this afternoon.

I'd also like to know a bit more about the circumstances under which you were given this loan, how it was sold, any PPI, etc. Obviously you can PM me with this.

Ok, will PM you with the details. The circumstances in which i was sold this loan were certainly questionable. There are also a number of inconsistences and inaccuracies in their defence which could possibly be helpful, will PM these as well. Thanks again for your help.