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Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Well "hi" all.....
and welcome to this new thread....
Settled three claims so far (one with barclaycard just last week) and its about time I 'fired off' some more, including my
Monument Credit Card (formally Providian) and a trading division of Barclays...
I am about to submit my claim form direct to the bank (a first for me as up until now I have used moneyclaim online). This was a neccessity bearing in mind the much longer 'particulars of claim' (POC) for the contractual interest part (another first for me)....
To date:
1/11/06
Sent my prelim letter asking for charges+interest
I sent to:
MONUMENT PORTLAND BUILDING 25 THE HIGH STREET CRAWLEY WEST SUSSEX RH10 1BG
Re-sent my LBA to same address asking for compunded contractual interest aswell.
(Aware I cannot claim 8% statatory aswell)
I enclosed another schedule using 'Vampires's Chambers'
I asked for £396.00 charges; £51.71 interest on charges
and £424.56 compounded contractual interest
using monuments unauthorised borrowing rate of 29.90%
A grand total of £872.26
The only correspondance derived from these 3 letters has been:
12/2/07
*Dedicated to customer satisafaction bla bla blah
*Disagree with my legal analysis.....
*"At Monument we believe it is fair that when a customer pays us late or the balance on the account exceeds the agreed credit limit, the costs we incur are bourne by the customer" Hmmm??? The costs perhaps?? As for a profit.....
*Pay on time *Offer of goodwill £338.00
*"Should you no longer be prepared to accept and wish to be subject to the account terms and conditions and close your account, please advise me. Please note you would liable for the outstanding balance on your account." bla bla bla
Marion Pyle....... and what a pyle of rubbish it is!!!
She gave a phone number of 01293 802 473
I have not replied to this letter yet, but will do so shortly... and show here
In the next few threads I will show:
what I believe to be their borrowing rates
My proposed POC (derived largely from the brilliant 'mccuth' and 'mindzai & lucid' threads
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Ok my draft POC
(a huge thankyou particularly to 'mccuths vs RBos' thread:
Firstly, I will point out that I will take action against:
BARCLAYS BANK PLC T/A MONUMENT
and address all correspondance to barclays registered address!!!
Brief details of claim"
The Claimant seeks the return of penalty charges and overdraft interest charged thereon, debited to the Claimant's bank account by the Defendant, and interest on these amounts as defined by the contract between the parties.
"Value"
Penalty charges in the sum of £xxxx and interest charged thereon in the sum of £xxxx. Interest to be determined as the Court deems just, as per section 8 of the attached Particulars of Claim, with the maximum to not exceed £xxxx. A maximum total of £xxxx.
Plus any applicable Court fees.
Plus interest from date of issue to date of judgement or earlier payment at a maximum rate of £xxxx per day or at such rate and for such periods as the Court deems just, according to section 8 of the attached Particulars of Claim.
"Particulars of claim"
1. The Claimant has a xxxx Account, number xxxx ("the Account"), sort code xxxx) on or around xxxxth xxxx xxxx;
2. The Account is governed by the Defendant’s Personal Banking terms and conditions ("the contract");
3. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant has debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract in regards to "Late Payment Fees", "Unpaid direct debit Fees", "Overlimit Fees", etc.. on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied;
4. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant;
5. A schedule of the charges and interest applied is attached to these particulars of claim; (Appendix xxxx);
6. The Claimant will rely on the Office of Fair Trading’s ("the OFT") statement of 5th April 2006 concerning default charges in credit card contracts;
7. The Claimant thus contends that:
a) The charges debited to the Account:
i) are punitive in nature;
ii) are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant;
iii) exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant;
iv) are not intended to represent or relate to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.
b) Further to 7.a), the charges debited to the Account are penalties rather than liquidated damages. A charge is held to be a penalty if the sum stipulated for is extravagant and unconscionable in amount in comparison to the greatest loss that could conceivably be proved to have followed from the breach. A penalty clause is void in its entirety and unenforceable.
c) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999) paragraph 8 and schedule 2(1)(e), the Unfair Contract Terms Act (1977) section4, and the common law.
d) In the alternative to 7.a), b) and c), if the Court finds that the charges are not a penalty, then the Claimant contends that they are unreasonable within the meaning of s.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.
8. Contractual Interest
a) The Claimant claims compound interest on the amounts claimed under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, using the rate and method specified in the said contract, and as is applied by the Defendant to monies it is owed;
b) The Claimant’s grounds for seeking restitution of the compounded contractual rate of interest is that the Defendant would be unjustly enriched if the Claimant's entitlement was limited to the statutory rate of interest in that the Defendant has had use of the sums and would have used these sums to re-lend at commercial compounded rates;
c) The Claimant contends that the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account is unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant. Therefore, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, in the first instance the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s current unauthorised borrowing rate, being xxxx% EAR;
d) In the alternative to 8.c), should the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account not be deemed to be unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant, then, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s lowest current authorised borrowing rate for a xxxx Account, being xxxx% EAR;
e) In the alternative to 8.c) and d), if the Court decides that the Claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, then the Claimant has calculated interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year;
f) Details of interest calculated & rates used are attached to these Particulars of Claim as follows:
Appendix xxxx – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of xxxx%
Appendix xxxx – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of xxxx%
Appendix xxxx – Simple interest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at an annual rate of 8.00%
Appendix xxxx – Evidence of the Defendant’s current borrowing rates
9. Accordingly, the Claimant claims:
a) The return of the amounts debited between xxxx xxxx xxxx and xxxx xxxx xxxx in respect of charges in the sum of £xxxx, together with interest charged thereon in the sum of £xxxx – totalling £xxxx;
b) Any applicable Court fees;
c) Compound interest at the contractual rate of xxxx% EAR from the date of each transaction to xxxx xxxx xxxx of £xxxx, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx;
d) In the alternative to 9.c), compound interest at the contractual rate of xxxx% EAR from the date of each transaction to xxxx xxxx xxxx of £xxxx, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx;
e) In the alternative to 9.c) and d), interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year, from the date of each transaction to xxxx xxxx xxxx, of £xxxx and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx.
10. Save payments into and/or determined by the Court, any sums paid in settlement of this claim are required to be made by cheque, which should be made payable to the Claimant.
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Just read this on Uswitch
One of the UK's largest banks is in talks to sell off one of its credit card businesses which caters for consumers with poor credit ratings.
Barclays is reviewing the whole of its Barclaycard operations and this could see its Monument arm, designed to provide credit for those with a bad credit history, being sold off.
Clydesdale Financial Services, which offers store cards at high interest rates through retailers, is also likely to be sold, according to the Financial Times.
Financial commentators have suggested that this is a sign that Barclays sees little hope of the British consumers' spending habits improving and is looking to distance itself from customers who will eventually cost them money through bad debts.
"Barclays' results are going to be very strong, but if they are looking to sell Monument then that tells you they are not especially sanguine about the credit environment," one cynical analyst told the Telegraph.
Barclays is not the first major bank to consider selling-off one of its credit arms; Prudential sold of Egg last year after bad debt charges caused huge losses at the finance firm.
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
sorry innocent, you're not being ignored! It's just that when you reproduce such a long letter or POC it needs a really experienced member to pick any holes in it - and with the time to read it all! I'm sure someone will eventually do that. Have you checked out other POC threads?
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Innocent have you asked for your original agrrement yet, I did, seems they don't have the original agrrements from when they were Providian, could get the whole of your interest back.
d) In the alternative to 8.c), should the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account not be deemed to be unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant, then, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s lowest current authorised borrowing rate for a xxxx Account, being xxxx% EAR;
e) In the alternative to 8.c) and d), if the Court decides that the Claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, then the Claimant has calculated interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year;
I may be mistaken, but I suspect that you have not ever authorised Monument to borrow from you, have you? I don't see any good reason for a (lower) authorised borrowing rate to be applied to your claim.
Originally Posted by innocent
Originally Posted by innocent
......10. Save payments into and/or determined by the Court, any sums paid in settlement of this claim are required to be made by cheque, which should be made payable to the Claimant.
Innocent
I believe that there is no right to a particular method of payment, but you can stipulate a particular method of payment in your settlement discussions. The Defendant can choose whether or not to accept your stipulation as part of the settlement.
Otherwise, it looks good to me, but don't rely on one response. You should get a range of views to form your opinions and make any amendments to suit.
Opinions / advice of Bean are independent, informal, without prejudice, without liability, not CAG endorsed. If in doubt, ask a qualified professional.
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
I don't know - I haven't come across anyone actually calculating the cash advance rate & the merchandise rate separately. Certainly first option is to go for the higher rate and then the statutory as the alternative. Someone should come along & clear this up soon, I expect. Or you could start a new thread on merchandise/cash advance interest, but just ask if anyone has calculated and then claimed on 2 different interest rates. - don't refer to this specific case otherwise you will get your threads merged and you'll be back to square one!
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
An update of my proposed "N1" POC
CHANGES HIGHLIGHTED IN BLUE
Ok action is against: (even though Barclays may be selling Monument????)
BARCLAYS BANK PLC T/A MONUMENT
and address all correspondance to barclays registered address!!!
Brief details of claim"
The Claimant seeks the return of penalty charges and overdraft interest charged thereon, debited to the Claimant's bank account by the Defendant, and interest on these amounts as defined by the contract between the parties.
"Value"
Penalty charges in the sum of £xxxx and interest charged thereon in the sum of £xxxx. Interest to be determined as the Court deems just, as per section 8 of the attached Particulars of Claim, with the maximum to not exceed £xxxx. A maximum total of £xxxx.
Plus any applicable Court fees.
Plus interest from date of issue to date of judgement or earlier payment at a maximum rate of £xxxx per day or at such rate and for such periods as the Court deems just, according to section 8 of the attached Particulars of Claim.
"Particulars of claim"
1. The Claimant has a 'Monument' Credit Card Account, number xxxx ("the Account"), opened on or around 11th October 2002;
2. The Account is governed by the Defendant’s Personal Banking terms and conditions ("the contract");
3. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant has debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract in regards to "Late Payment Fees" and "Overlimit Fees", etc.. on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied;
4. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant;
5. A schedule of the charges and interest applied is attached to these particulars of claim; (Appendix xxxx);
6. The Claimant will rely on the Competition Commission’s report entitled "Northern Irish Personal Banking," published on 20th October, 2006, as evidence that the Defendant is aware that the income derived from its default charges is calculated to generate material profits and is not merely a means of recouping losses incurred in relation to Account defaults
7. The Claimant will further rely on the Office of Fair Trading’s ("the OFT") statement of 5th April 2006 concerning default charges in credit card contracts;
8. The Claimant thus contends that:
a) The charges debited to the Account:
i) are punitive in nature;
ii) are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant;
iii) exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant;
iv) are not intended to represent or relate to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.
b) Further to 8.a), the charges debited to the Account are penalties rather than liquidated damages. A charge is held to be a penalty if the sum stipulated for is extravagant and unconscionable in amount in comparison to the greatest loss that could conceivably be proved to have followed from the breach. A penalty clause is void in its entirety and unenforceable.
c) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999) paragraph 8 and schedule 2(1)(e), the Unfair Contract Terms Act (1977) section4, and the common law.
d) In the alternative to 8.a), b) and c), if the Court finds that the charges are not a penalty, then the Claimant contends that they are unreasonable within the meaning of s.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.
9. Contractual Interest
a) The Claimant claims compound interest on the amounts claimed under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, using the rate and method specified in the said contract, and as is applied by the Defendant to monies it is owed;
b) The Claimant’s grounds for seeking restitution of the compounded contractual rate of interest is that the Defendant would be unjustly enriched if the Claimant's entitlement was limited to the statutory rate of interest in that the Defendant has had use of the sums and would have used these sums to re-lend at commercial compounded rates;
c) The Claimant contends that the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account is 'cash advance' borrowing by the Defendant. Therefore, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, in the first instance the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s current 'cash advance' borrowing rate, being 29.9%APR;
d) In the alternative to 9.c), should the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account not be deemed to be 'cash advance' borrowing by the Defendant, then, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s lower current 'merchandise' borrowing rate for a 'Monument' Account, being 19.9% APR;
e) In the alternative to 9.c) and d), if the Court decides that the Claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, then the Claimant has calculated interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year;
f) Details of interest calculated & rates used are attached to these Particulars of Claim as follows:
Appendix xxxx – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 29.9%APR
Appendix xxxx – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 19.9%APR
Appendix xxxx – Simple interest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at an annual rate of 8.00%
Appendix xxxx – Evidence of the Defendant’s current borrowing rates
10. Accordingly, the Claimant claims:
a) The return of the amounts debited between 11th July, 2003 and xxxx xxxx xxxx in respect of charges in the sum of £xxxx, together with interest charged thereon in the sum of £xxxx – totalling £xxxx;
b) Any applicable Court fees;
c) Compound interest at the contractual rate of 29.9% APR from the date of each transaction to xxxx xxxx xxxx of £xxxx, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx;
d) In the alternative to 10.c), compound interest at the contractual rate of 19.9% APR from the date of each transaction to xxxx xxxx xxxx of £xxxx, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx;
e) In the alternative to 10.c) and d), interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year, from the date of each transaction to xxxx xxxx xxxx, of £xxxx and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx.
WHAT DOES EVERYONE THINK WITH THIS UPDATE??
Innocent
*I HAVE CONFIRMED THE RATES I HAVE BEEN CHARGED FINDING BOTH LETTERS FROM MONUMENT (EXPLAINING THE CHANGES) AND CONFIRMING RATES ON EACH AND EVERY STATEMENT.
*I HAVE NOT REQUESTED THE ORIGINAL AGREEMENT----- HOW WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO CLAIM ALL THE INTEREST BACK????
*I INTEND TO REPLY TO THEIR OFFER OF £338 "NOW", I WILL ACCEPT ONLY AS A PARTIAL PAYMENT BLA BLA BLA.... AND WILL COMMENCE LEGAL PROCEEDINGS WITHIN ONE WEEK FOR THE FULL AMOUNT HAVING GIVEN MONUMENT ENOUGH TIME ETC ETC TO REFUND THIS PARTIAL AMOUNT....
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
I'm sure people have claimed contractual on a CC - I just haven't come across anyone calculating the cash advances and merchandising separately. I understand why you are doing that, & I guess the way to do it (if you haven't already) is to do 2 spreads - one for merchandise and one for cash advances, and then claim back the total of the 2.
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Thanks "earlybird" ladybird lololol
And I am trying to spark some discussion on this thread....
(thankyou for participating)
Yeah, I can see people who have won CI on credit card accounts, and I have now seen about 8 differing (but similiar) CI POCs (guess what?) all quoting authorised and unauthorised rates......
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Hi, Innocent
I have only sent my SARs to Monument ,Barclaycard and Cap 1 this week. Just read through your thread is it that Monument are a harder nut to crack or is it that you are claiming different interest rates on this claim that you are seeking more help with this.
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
it's your call! - If you go for the unauthorised you may get it - or you may have to settle for the contractual. Ditto for authorised. You have to weigh up whether there is MORE likelihood of getting the authorised than the unauthorised - who knows?? There have been mutuality & recipricoty - (is that the right word still too early!) arguments in court, some have won, some haven't!
Not much help here am I? Just thinking out aloud....but when it's at the court stage, no one can pre-empt what's going to happen. So all you can do is make sure all your documentation is spot on (yours seems to now look OK), minimise your risks (oh & keep fingers crossed that it doesn't even to get to court!)
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Thanks ladybird........ my thoughts ALOUD exactly at the moment....
Enaid..... Having reviewed other threads I do not believe Monument are a particular 'hard nut' to crack, but I am claiming different interest rates this time, as you suggest, ie contractual interest....
Enaid...... May I suggest you review my...
Innocent vs Capital 1 (easy.......) Innocent vs Natwest Innocent vs Barclaycard threads;
all of which I claimed back the much more proven statautory interest.... I suspect they will proove useful for you
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
I have had a look at them so I am after the same, have done Natwest full result, thought credit cards may differ in some way that is why I am now reading up on these threads. I really don't think I will be going down the contractual route as the claims I am doing are for my son and no way could he afford just now to have the accounts closed, although I know banks are now having to pay compensation for closures.I will follow your threads if you don't mind and also may ask for some advice if thats ok as you seem to have all the same cards as my son. Don't mean to sound rude but the cards that give out money easier than some to the most vunerable.
Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
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Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
Originally Posted by innocent
Re: Innocent vs Monument (Barclays) CONTRACTUAL INTEREST
